I forgot to mention my weaponry in the last post, and the edit window is closed. If you post anything where it matters, I am currently wielding a dagger and shield, its more appropriate for our close up ambush than my spear.
"Vyllaria, do not embarrass yourself by trying to use your head. If it is metaphor you wish to hear then try this: the blades of your wit would fail to pierce the skin of a mental pudding. Amazingly, you are making Mordy look like a genius."
Vyllaria has an Int score of 8. This is how I pass off her having an incredible breadth of skills (from class and campaign bonus) and still have low intelligence. She lacks creativity, meaning her metaphors intrinsically fail. Traded it for the ability to treat short swords as slashing (please?)
it works for the character and has lead us to some funny conversations, but why do you want sword swords as slashing? The Sawtooth, if you are going RMA, is already a slashing weapon
I understand what you are doing Matt, and my character is just not a nice and forgiving person, so she has to mock you :P Its entirely not personal, as I'm sure you know.
Oh I totally know. I never said I took it personally. And if I do it'll be in character.
also re mordy:
why do you want sword swords as slashing? The Sawtooth, if you are going RMA, is already a slashing weapon
Because I do not yet have proficiency, and at the rate this campaign is going, it may be a while before I do. Also I can't finesse longswords, so it would be inefficient to sub one as primary.
Also I find that rulign kinda dumb. Shortswords are literally just that: "short" swords. swords are intrinsically slashing weapons. Even daggers can be slashing or piercing. In my opinion short swords should be either S or P, or just S and not P. I get that the idea might have been to use them for stabbing, but really, if a dagger can do both, then a bigger version should be able to do both as well.
your just need one more level right or what is your feat progression looking like
yes 1 level. so hopefully soon, but who knows. Basically I'm asking for a ruling for this encounter. (or any other where I need to use a shortsword and don't have access to another weapon for some strange reason.
For the encounter it doesn't matter. The DR is bypassed by piercing too. I wasn't exactly certain, but got confirmation via PM. Stab away!
can we have a turn order? If not I am just going to ready another attack
can we have a turn order? If not I am just going to ready another attack
I'd say just assume turn order is Party > Baddies > Party > Baddies ... rinse and repeat. At least for this encounter. Unless you know there's a very specific point at which rocks fall and everyone dies.
Also, technically we haven't even hit regular order yet. So far one monster moved and you and Semirhage took your readied actions. Next monster to approach I get mine, and then it will likely proceed with the monsters moving and us getting AoOs... it may not even get to regular order before this combat is decided.
I see three draugr in play: one controlled by edward, one attackign the one controlled by edward, and one that you just turned into mushy grey paste, so my readied attacks may actually be forfeit, in which case i just ready another.
The knight swings his blade at Semirhage before she can react, slicing deep into her side.
Just a nit-picky detail, if the resulting damage was strain, then you houldnt narrate a serious injury like that. A better description might be "the knight swings his sword down in a deadly arc which Semirhage only narrowly avoids." Just, you know, for legitimacy.
Not that I am complaining but why do you keep linking random songs in the GM posts? Why not ones that have some connection that is going on.
Wait looooooot! What stuff did the dead guy have!
Not that I am complaining but why do you keep linking random songs in the GM posts? Why not ones that have some connection that is going on.
I'm bored. It amuses me. And some of them are not random at all. Actually, most of them are not random.
The sadly deceased Sir Balin used to own a longsword, a dagger, a potion of Cure Light Wounds, a cloak of resistance +1, a set of masterwork full plate, a heavy steel shield
So we are doing this in a montage but really I think the only two pieces of loot that we care about are the Full plate and the cloak of resistance. Someone can take the potion and I am going to claim dibs on the full plate. Who wants the cloak?
Not sure if you want me to roleplay this in, but what about supplies and such? Semirhage would definitely take all the jewelery and clothing she is able to from the mansion, she is a diva of a sort - and this would include male garments for disguise purposes. She wouldn't worry about food per se, but I assume we have that covered? How about weapons, can we take some new weapons? I want numerous daggers, a couple spears, and a backup shield or two. How much will Thorn give us for the trip? We don't really have money or a place to shop at this point.
Edit: and a healing kit so I can aid Mordy if he is injured.
we have 20 pounds of Mirthal can we do something with that? can we sell or shop?
In regards to supplies:
You may take 50gp worth of equipment from the armoury. You have been stuck in the mansion for some time, and so have not had a chance to sell the mithral yet.
Clothing and jewelry: Anything you can find in the mansion is likely being worn by Tiadora. Thus, you are unlikely to be able to acquire anything.
You will have a chance to sell things eventually. If you are really desperate, Kargeld might be able to take some things off your hands.
Bluff: 1d20 + 15 ⇒ (20) + 15 = 35
Wow, epic bluff there. Sure you don't want to surge on that just for kicks too? ;)
The radiance of my truth has already blinded them enough, no need to also sear their flesh with it.
So why do they get a surprise round when we see them? What then was the point of rolling perception? If we make it we still get attack the same if we don't make it. Why bother having skill checks if they don't effect the out come?
They bested our perception (except for Edward.) the surprise round did happen. The surprise was that water elementals appeared on our boat. They then acted in the surprise round. Play now resumes normal turn order. We may have talked overtop of this, but the intent was that Edward saw them effectively as they were being summoned, an that in mechanics terms absolutely no time at all passed between Edward makin his perception check and the monsters attacking. This resulted because of the very nature of play-by-post action, where whoever speaketh first gaineth the first action. Our GM simply prefers to adhere to the more rigid tabletop rules, as befits running a module from a book. In summary: you, Mordekai, were too busy talking to notice the elementals before they had time to act. And now we have time to amend that error.
Indeed. Vyllaria has the right of it.
Moving this to here:
So are you running the perception skill checks per character? We have always done it that only one party member needs to see the surprise for all it act. Means that all of us don't need perception as a trained skill. Mordekai will then need act in any surprise rounds.
That's not how surprise works. You roll the perception to see if you are surprised or not. If you fail, you are surprised and get no action. If you succeed, you are able to react, but the surprise is still there. If everyone makes it, there is no surprise. What the GM has done in the past, is roll said perception check for us, and tell us who can react and who is surprised.
My issue with that is everyone then needs perception trained. It makes it the best skill, bar none. If one person yells out that there is a wolf in the grass and points it out, then everyone will know and should react accordingly. Again not how we have ran it in the past. If I rolled and saw the wolves coming, I would yell out and let everyone else know. There would then be no surprise round and we would just go to normal initiative. One person needs to see the monster for the group to understand where it is and act. Everyone doesn't need to roll diplomacy checks to try get information from someone. One person needs to roll and if they succeed the whole party succeeded. I have no idea what your point was. I can't make any perception checks because of my character but I don't need to because some one else in the party can.
Its entirely dependent on the scenario. Sometimes you can observe a threat early enough to give the party warning, other times you cannot. The penalty of a low wis character is you rarely move in the surprise round, but that's usually not terribly significant since it is only a single action. The dark lord can perhaps decree if someone was particularly observant that we got enough warning - unlikely in the case of an underwater surprise.
True, the timing can be tricky. Wolves might circle around the camp a couple of times but a shark might just jump out of the water. You might see both but how mush time you have till they attack can be very different.
Its entirely dependent on the scenario. Sometimes you can observe a threat early enough to give the party warning, other times you cannot. The penalty of a low wis character is you rarely move in the surprise round, but that's usually not terribly significant since it is only a single action. The dark lord can perhaps decree if someone was particularly observant that we got enough warning - unlikely in the case of an underwater surprise.
I echo that it still depends on the scenario. The observed underwater creatures may have been stealthily swimming underneath our boats. Edward has made his spot check. What that means is he is now aware of their presence. In that case, he could alert the rest of us to their presence provided they are not in the act of actually atacking us.
The decision to attack is only made in the surprise round, once it is determined who is aware of the potential attacker. The attacker may then choose whether or not he actually wishes to attack. For example: a stealthy rogue sneaks up on the party of Hobgoblins. The rogue makes a stealth check while the Hobgoblins make perception checks. Once the checks are made, the rogue decides whether he will attack the Goblins, giving up his stealthy cover, or whether he will continue to sneak past them. should he choose the latter, it is treated as a full round, in which the hobgoblins make more perception checks, and the rogue makes another stealth check to move again. no surprise round has happened, because no one has chosen to declare an attack.
Lets say on the third round the rogue decides to snipe one of the goblins with his crossbow. The rogue rolls his third stealth check. This time one of the Hobgoblins beats him with its perception check. That goblin is now aware of the rogue and we automatcally proceed to the surprise round. If none of the Hobgoblins had made their perception checks, the rogue would instead be free to fire at whomever he chooses. His action IS the surprise round. All the Hobgoblins were surprised. Then initiative is rolled and regular combat commences.
Back to our scenario: the thinsg in the water may simply be following and wish to remain undetected. If so, their plan is foiled, and if they choose they may now act and attempt to beat Edward in initiative to win thier first actions in the surprise round... or Edward may win initiative in which case he reacts to the water-thing's presence and casts his spell... or they may choose to retreat and attempt to take us unawares at a later time. All are viable courses of action that could comprise the entirety of the "surprise round." From what the GM said in his post, I suspect he is actually leaning towards the latter. However, the chances of catching all of us at unawares at the same time is very unlikely. Today most of us just rolled poorly. Except for Edward.
I could debate this all day but I'd rather not, lest people's feelings get hurt or we bore ourselves to tears. the GM is more than capable of making rulings on such matters.
Okay, I kinda agree with what you said. They are not attacking us hiding under the boat. There should be no surprise round because we got them before they were actively attacking us. If Edward saw them starting to jump out of the water to bite someone then yes that is the surprise round. They are not actively trying to attack under the boat so there is then no surprise round and the initiative is rolled. If I saw a wolf circling the camp site then no surprise round. If I saw the wolf jump out of a near by bush and rush to attack me then surprise round. So in the scenario that you said above then the rogue would get a surprise round but not one if he failed his stealth and tried to keep on walking. The issue is that surprise round shouldn't be given to something that failed their check. If they messed up why are they being rewarded so doing so. The other side is that the one doing the seeing got to act because he rolled good enough so isn't that a reward for him not the failed stealther? I just really don't like the idea of a GM using the surprise round to have monster rush the PC's and surround them to try and make it artificially harder combat. This games rules are set up so who ever goes first gets a large advantage that I disagree with. Why flat footed AC when I see something attacking me but I have reacted yet bc Init roll tells me so. Rounds in path are to long for me not to react to something running at me 20 feet away. Basic human reaction time has gotten me ready for the hit at that point. It is one of the thing that I love about Warhammer. Everything is supposed to happen really fast and almost at the same time. I like like I am stuck in and old FF game. Really this is my annoyance with old school turn based combat. Also again this doesn't solve the issue that I will never act in the round bc I don't have perception. I don't like stealth mechanics, they never work well. I will get perception at 5 though I what suck it up for a couple of levels.
The issue is that you don't seem to understand how stealth works. There is no benchmark for "success" or "failure" with stealthing, you make an opposed check. And if someone spots you then your cover is blown. When your cover is blown you have a reaction, but so does the person who spotted you. Whoever reacts first is the one who gets the first action. Hence initiative.
Also, what is with this comment?
I just really don't like the idea of a GM using the surprise round to have monster rush the PC's and surround them to try and make it artificially harder combat.
That is exactly the point of the surprise round! The point is exactly that the monsters suddenly swoop down from out of the blue and maybe actually deal some damage. A good GM is one who knows how to play his monsters well. Smart creatures and animals will play to their strengths.
A river snake is venomous and excellent at hiding in water, but can be crushed under foot by the merest of armed footmen. If the river snake rushed you, it would flail uselessly against your armor before you slice its head off with your scythe. But if the river snake were to hide in the reeds at the river crossing, and wait until you entered the water, encumbered from carrying your heavy pack over your head and distracted by having to make strength checks not to be washed downstream, well, it might just be able to land a bite and poison you, and then escape and allow the poison to finish you off for it. On the other extreme a mountain giant is never going to be able to take you unawares, it is simply far too big and loud. instead it's best advantage is to throw rocks at you form across the gorge where it remains safely out of your reach and can dish out massive damage. And then there's your doppleganger. How is an identical copy of yourself supposed to hope to beat yourself? My solution? Go for the grapple, tie him up, then coup de grace. You aren't going to try sneaking up on yourself, because while you have terrible perception, your armor makes it nigh impossible to get within 100 yards without being overheard.
Think about it. If all the GM did was pit you in an open field against 1 enemy after another, you'd get pretty bored. Also, same if he pits you against enemies that are constantly trying to sneak up on us and get us in surprise round. The game becomes significantly more challenging, (and thus more stimulating, more exciting, more entertaining, more fun,) if the GM plays the game in a way that the players DON'T expect. Keep things fluid. Shake things up. If it feels like "we've done this before," then we're going to notice. Especially here in an online forum. I get that maybe some people are just tickled slap-happy by the prospect of slugging bears over the head over and over and over. Some people are weird, and that's ok. The most important thing is for everyone to have fun. GM, if you feel like you aren't havign fun with this anymore, then you need to take some liberties. Stop playign by the book. wing it a few times. Fudge some numbers. Do some damage. Build an entirely non-plot intergal character just because you want to, and convice us that he is the ruler of a lost Utopia, or whatever. Add a new sidequest. Get us lost in a haunted mansion. Do something "just because" you can. As far as the game in concerned, you are god, so go be a freaking god already! And players, if you aren't having fun, you need to make sure your GM knows. Ask him to tone down the violence. Ask him to add more ponies. Ask him to take away the ponies. Ask him if you can jump on the back of the golem form the upper roof of a three story building and shove the key in its forehead to shut it off, rather than tryign to tickle its toes with your longspear. If the GM is doing something that bothers you, and it's really too much for you to take, take it up with the him. I'm sure you can work out a way to play the game and still have it be fun.
I like like I am stuck in and old FF game. Really this is my annoyance with old school turn based combat. Also again this doesn't solve the issue that I will never act in the round bc I don't have perception. I don't like stealth mechanics, they never work well.
I get that you have your gripes about the system. We all have problems with it, one way or another. If the problem is such that it's ruining your experience, see the above: talk to your GM. And IF that doesn't work, well, don't take this the wrong way, but it's just a game, and you don't have to play if you're just plain fed up with it. We won't hold anything against you. We're not immature like people who play LoL or WoW or any game where as soon as you quite people start screaming at you for "ragequitting." By golly if you've got a good reason to quit the game, you go and quit the game, don't let us hold you back. Life's waaaaay to short to spend doing something you aren't enjoying.
Anyway, hope that helps ;) I mean everything I say in the best way possible.
And that means you too GM. I got your back :P :)
Well Vyllaria, I think your last point is just a function of how people design characters differently. I tend to look for a character who is mechanically interesting, and create a character story around that. You tend to build a character story and then try to match mechanics to it. I don't think you can say either is right or wrong, but your style can often lead to a design with less synergy since the mechanics aren't perfectly adapted to your chosen story (while for me, my story may not perfectly fit my mechanics). Plus, I think all of our characters are cool and thematic, no one has really been outshining anyone from my perspective - Mordy has just managed to land the biggest hits of anyone, as is his role.
Well Vyllaria, I think your last point is just a function of how people design characters differently. I tend to look for a character who is mechanically interesting, and create a character story around that. You tend to build a character story and then try to match mechanics to it. I don't think you can say either is right or wrong, but your style can often lead to a design with less synergy since the mechanics aren't perfectly adapted to your chosen story (while for me, my story may not perfectly fit my mechanics). Plus, I think all of our characters are cool and thematic, no one has really been outshining anyone from my perspective - Mordy has just managed to land the biggest hits of anyone, as is his role.
I just changed a butt-load of what I said so hopefully you re-read. No hard feelings were meant, and yes, even my knowledge is fallable and imperfect. A fact I live to wrestle with every day. You wanna correct me? Cite a source. I don't mind, I enjoy learning. ;)
Well Vyllaria, I think your last point is just a function of how people design characters differently. I tend to look for a character who is mechanically interesting, and create a character story around that. You tend to build a character story and then try to match mechanics to it. I don't think you can say either is right or wrong, but your style can often lead to a design with less synergy since the mechanics aren't perfectly adapted to your chosen story (while for me, my story may not perfectly fit my mechanics). Plus, I think all of our characters are cool and thematic, no one has really been outshining anyone from my perspective - Mordy has just managed to land the biggest hits of anyone, as is his role.
Also, I never said there is a "right" or "wrong" way to build a character. Please do not quote me on such a thing, I did not say it. I'm simply admitting my grievances with the system to show Mordy I am a kind, considerate, and empathetic soul. I like to come up with "cool characters" vs. functional characters, so what. I will never regret building a 2-handed raging barbarian with cleave and power attack for skulls and shackles, and that guy never lasted a whole fight on his feet. I would purposefully nuke my AC just to get more hits. (and half the time i would still miss anyways.) But I had fun there, even though my character couldn't last a single encounter without getting knocked out.
I don't think you can say either is right or wrong, but your...
Should read, "I don't think one/anybody/a person can say..."
Wasn't aimed specifically at you.
cracks knuckles, here we go.
I understand how stealth works, It is a pass or fail mechanic. The bench mark for passing is if you beat the other guys perception. It is a pass or fail line that is constantly changing. The issue with the system is that mechanically I know when something is sneaking up on me or not but I can't act. I must act like I failed to notice the thing. I failed and he succeeded based on both of our rolls. That is how stealth works. Everything is this game is a fail or succeeded system. Either your roll high enough and you make it or you roll low and you fail. That is the game mechanic. What you described was how thematically the stealth system works.
This leads me into the character comment. Like Semirhage already said you don't make your character with the mechanic in mind and that is fine. Semir make her character from mechanics first. I tend to start with a roll. Mordy started as an anti-palladin. The it progressed to how do I make an anti-paly, then how do I make it interesting. My character should be the most physically damaging because that is the roll that I have made him for. Then I added all the fun personality. We are all cool thematically but we have build our with an eye to mechanics. You are simply is going to be less mechanical synergy because of it but that doesn't mean anything. That doesn't mean that one way is better then the other. I partly base my performance off of the damage number I can deal b/c that is what I am made to do. Even then I am not a fighter. You can make many more skill checks then I can b/c that is what that class is set up to do. Yes, it is partly an issue with the system but the system has it rules. Try to do something not in those rules and you won't get the best results. Even then it is not like we optimized our character to the nines. The system is made for you to fill a role and for each roll to have it's place. Now some rolls are better then others because that is how the system was made.
The issues that I have with surprise rounds is the power of gong first is way too powerful. If you could still to attacks of op. in that round then it would be fine. Thematically having bunch of monster rush you and flank you before you stupid brick can react is stupid. But reaction time doesn't matter because it is tired to the mechanic of rolling initiative. These are issues with the mechanics that I am complaining about. Stealth as a mechanic in any game I don't like because you character doesn't have a ready stance. If you are doing it then usually it is broken as hell (see Skyrim, Deus Ex, Star War RPG...). Yes, surprise round as a propose but it isn't for the rush of an enemy to catch the suit of armorer with zero reaction time off guard. Also the issues wasn't with surprise rounds in themselves it was with how does one get one and who gets to act. There is two different arguments here.
Ok, listen, The knuckle cracking was unnecessary. It seems we are both intent on saying our piece, and both are having a hard time understanding the intent of the other. Let's agree to disagree if we must.
However I resent your remark about character building. That issue has been discussed at length and was not the subject of this argument so for heaven's sake, please lay it to rest.
Secondly, there is no "rushing" happening here. The creatures in question are literally right underneath the boats. It would be fully believable that with a standard action they could attempt to overturn the boats, which I believe is their intended course of action. I hope this clarifies some things for you.
Sure, I am no angry and I do enjoy the argument. The cracking of the knuckles was so I would be ready to type and "go to combat" but it is a mock fight with out any real stakes. I was creating my long post while the other character creation conversation was going on. You can make your character however you want.
I know what the fish-ish things are trying to do. That is not the issue that I have with the surprise round mechanic but nothing really is left to be said.
Yikes, today has been busy, hasn't it? Here is an episode of a podcast that I have been listening that has been very informative and helpful, both to myself as a player, and myself as a GM.
In this particular instance, the bunyips were seen in the process of attacking the boats. They were far past the point of "Hey look, there's something in the water!" With a +10 on their stealth checks, it is a miracle ANYONE saw them, let alone the wizard. This encounter (Which, by the way, is so far going as written) is meant to be hard. The water is freezing cold, it's wet, and there are cray swimming ragemonsters in the water. They can easily overturn the dingies using a standard action. Or, I could simply be doing it for cinematic reasons. What better way to announce an aquatic bad guy than to flip the boat you are on?
I understand that you don't like how surprise rounds work. I'm not all that fond of them either as a player. Ambushes are historically the most devastating type of combats known to any being, be they man, animal, or plant. The surprise round, and stealth-vs-perception, are meant to model this. Going first is a huge advantage. Being able to act, instead of react is the basis of most victories. I'll admit that it is unpleasant, but that is how this works.
So the Ivory staff is 2,000 gp
I can added a master worked Longsword: (15+300)x2=630
Then what every clothes we got from the Wizard tower cost is tripled. Did we get noble's clothes? So 75x3=225, and we got 4 sets one for each so: 225x4=900
So we have 1530 value so far easily.
M's Heavy mace: 12x2=24
Semirhage's: Longer spear: 20
daggers: (2x2)x5= 20
heavy Seal Shield: 20x2=40
New total: 1634 value (366 short)
So does Edward or V have anything to add (like some rings? hint hint) or notice something I missed? Can we just use the money that we have to pay for the difference?
"Thorne led us into knowing worship, and we slew a knight of Mitra under his tutelage. However, our journey of faith began before even encountering Thorne, for we had sanctified a temple to Asmodeus with the blood of innocent virgins."
Whose blood was it? Anyone remember?
It was one of ours, I was posessed by the shrine. I think it was Mordy's blood.
The bluff check is for embellishing the tale (roleplay that I spoke at greater length and such).
Well done with that, by the way. It was indeed Morty's blood, not once, but twice. Vyllaria failed her will save, and had to attack him.
So Morty is a virgin? Not what I expected.
It was one of ours, I was posessed by the shrine. I think it was Mordy's blood.
The bluff check is for embellishing the tale (roleplay that I spoke at greater length and such).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is actually easier to bluff if the story is shorter? Maybe not. I guess it depends on the audience, as well as other factors (believably, context, use of evidence, etc.) I guess what i'm getting at is it is easier to convince someone of something if it is a simple idea. Simply saying that we offered the blood of a virgin to Asmodeus is a fairly simple and believable story. Saying that we were possessed by the power of a corrupted shrine and compelled to do so and that we had to use a certain ceremonial knife to make the offering and that is was Mordy's blood (twice) however true and actually still in line with Asmodean practices, is far more complex and thus less believable, if only slightly.
Also, I'm pretty sure Mordy is not a virgin? I seem to remember him putting something about a past relationship in his bio. Not that any of us necessarily know.
Also sorry for the run on sentence.
Semirhage is bluffing the virgin part... makes it sound more impressive.
I've made a custom combat map for you in google drawings. if you want. editting is open. link here.
Alright, I think we need to meet in person to speed this up. I'll poll again on SKype, but I think that this campaign, or at least this PBP section, is going to be inactive until September 3rd or so. So, let's try and find 5 or so hour in which to blitz this, eh?
guess who finally has a perception skill! or close enough
So now that we've wrapped up this session in person, will we be resuming this anytime soon?