@Egoish: The sorc is int based, so I wouldn't bet on huge social interactions!
As for an A+ group, I'd want to see a group that could pretty much lay waste to both encounters within a round or two. I think it's doable, but would require a really, really good level 1 party....and this party wouldn't necessarily be the best party later on as levels go up.
The only reason for the B was how safe the party is overall. Otherwise, I'd have given a much lower grade. With no offense, you better have a pretty darn good manner of keeping players safe, and, really, the oracle and the characters' high ACs were what made them pretty good. I really do dislike how many rounds I think it would take this group to get through these encounters, though.
An example would be a group that had a well built archer, a solid couple of melee'rs with a high attack bonuses, and a utility character who still contributed in combat.
For example, a Human fighter with weapon focus (or rapid shot), point blank, and precise shot and at least 18 Dex. A Barbarian or Paladin. A battle oracle or melee cleric or melee Druid or Bard or...you get the point. And party member 4, which could very well be anything as long as it can contribute some offense. I'm confident this group would get an A on the first day of encounters if all members were built well, simply because they'd put the enemy down so fast with average rolls that it would be ridiculous. They might take more damage than the current party we have here, but they'd have more hit points (and probably equivalent or better AC so maybe not more damage) and could still heal out of combat, so that wouldn't matter.
The basic idea is: I'd like to see some decent ranged capability mixed with people who can really one shot things on charges. Healing is a secondary utility that many classes have, and can be done out of combat. Longer buffs that can also be cast out of combat when there is time are also favored. Accuracy with moderate to excellent damage on each character would be preferable.
To make this completely more obtuse (heh), I will go with a baseball analogy. As of right now, you guys are a lineup that plays solid defense in the field, but whose offense relies on the home run. Sure, you have some home run hitters (the SoS spells and the Monk's damage), but in games where the home run isn't a factor, your team's gonna struggle to manufacture runs the old fashioned way. Your defense as of now will keep the game close enough to where you can wait for the long ball, but it's not the best paradigm to build around.
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I'm going to post the 2nd encounter day this evening. I'm hoping the other judges are still around, but they haven't posted in awhile.
If you all have anyone you want to suggest/recruit for judging, drag them over here today. I don't want to add judges after the first encounter, but I also would rather have more than two judges (quality judges that they are) just to have some more opinions weighing in.
For what it is worth, I would have rated the first encounter the same. The life oracle adds an awful lot to that encounter.
i'm glad the oracle performed well, but then i did write it (/buff ego)...
I agree with you pretty much entirely Sylvanite, a party of martials would perform much better in that encounter and with the oracle to support them they would mince through the encounter.
I almost made the oracle a battle oracle with rerolls but i decided i could get enough smashing in as we levelled up that i wouldn't need to much of it at 1st level.
I'd worry about an all martial party later on in any AP though, i ran a mostly martial party though kingmaker (caster oracle, 2h barb, bg cavalier, vivisectionist alchemist) and the first fight they had trouble with was when they first hit a spell casting opponent, the second time they met a caster 2 of them died. When the higher level spells kick in for NPC's martials have more trouble without support.
i'm glad the oracle performed well, but then i did write it (/buff ego)...
I agree with you pretty much entirely Sylvanite, a party of martials would perform much better in that encounter and with the oracle to support them they would mince through the encounter.
I almost made the oracle a battle oracle with rerolls but i decided i could get enough smashing in as we levelled up that i wouldn't need to much of it at 1st level.
I'd worry about an all martial party later on in any AP though, i ran a mostly martial party though kingmaker (caster oracle, 2h barb, bg cavalier, vivisectionist alchemist) and the first fight they had trouble with was when they first hit a spell casting opponent, the second time they met a caster 2 of them died. When the higher level spells kick in for NPC's martials have more trouble without support.
Agreed. Though, I should point out, that this AP is....quirky. I promise you, being able to deal a whole bunch of damage stays very relevant throughout this whole path. That said, a whole group of melee'rs gets POUNDED later on, too. This AP is a great test as it really needs an EXCELLENT group to be able to get through certain parts of it. If you're up for a hilarious read, there is an RIP thread in the RotRL forums for all the characters killed while going through it.
Agreed. Though, I should point out, that this AP is....quirky. I promise you, being able to deal a whole bunch of damage stays very relevant throughout this whole path. That said, a whole group of melee'rs gets POUNDED later on, too. This AP is a great test as it really needs an EXCELLENT group to be able to get through certain parts of it. If you're up for a hilarious read, there is an RIP thread in the RotRL forums for all the characters killed while going through it.i'm glad the oracle performed well, but then i did write it (/buff ego)...
I agree with you pretty much entirely Sylvanite, a party of martials would perform much better in that encounter and with the oracle to support them they would mince through the encounter.
I almost made the oracle a battle oracle with rerolls but i decided i could get enough smashing in as we levelled up that i wouldn't need to much of it at 1st level.
I'd worry about an all martial party later on in any AP though, i ran a mostly martial party though kingmaker (caster oracle, 2h barb, bg cavalier, vivisectionist alchemist) and the first fight they had trouble with was when they first hit a spell casting opponent, the second time they met a caster 2 of them died. When the higher level spells kick in for NPC's martials have more trouble without support.
Your begining to make me wish i had built out the blaster i proposed in the evocation optimisation thread to see how it would handle an AP. If dealing huge ammounts of damage is relevant all the way through having that big old fire snake rolling over everything in the surprise round might have been handy.
Yes. It would have been. But I think this whole thing evolved from the idea that a "god wizard" roflstomps all encounters, so we need to have a god wizard doing his best. I'd love to run this whole experiment like 90 times with all sorts of different characters and different groups, tho. It'd be an interesting (if incredibly time consuming) way to eventually narrow things down to "the ultimate group" in a sense.
Think how awesome it would be to run this as a long term "bracket" style contest where we came up with like 40 builds that were considered very good, assigned them into somewhat role balanced groups, and then the best character from a group moved on to the next round with 3 other "best ofs" and we kept going that way until we were down to the last 4 and eventually "the ultimate" character. It'd probably take a year or so to do, along with more people participating than we have, but it's an interesting idea.
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Yes. It would have been. But I think this whole thing evolved from the idea that a "god wizard" roflstomps all encounters, so we need to have a god wizard doing his best. I'd love to run this whole experiment like 90 times with all sorts of different characters and different groups, tho. It'd be an interesting (if incredibly time consuming) way to eventually narrow things down to "the ultimate group" in a sense.
Think how awesome it would be to run this as a long term "bracket" style contest where we came up with like 40 builds that were considered very good, assigned them into somewhat role balanced groups, and then the best character from a group moved on to the next round with 3 other "best ofs" and we kept going that way until we were down to the last 4 and eventually "the ultimate" character. It'd probably take a year or so to do, along with more people participating than we have, but it's an interesting idea.
My hope is that if this goes well, it can be pointed to and replicated by others with other builds. The first run will be the hardest, but after that it really is just a matter of following the format and plugging in different builds.
My hope is that if this goes well, it can be pointed to and replicated by others with other builds. The first run will be the hardest, but after that it really is just a matter of following the format and plugging in different builds.
Absolutely, man. I have a bunch of builds I'd love to run through this gauntlet, and I'd love to judge a bunch more. Tons of fun and wicked informative. Great idea, C.
...I’m calling Salis a tool.
This judge even thinks like a god-caster. Just kidding, but not really.
The players need to post in here to discuss the split of the loot and what they are going to do with it and then we need to level up.
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...I’m calling Salis a tool.This judge even thinks like a god-caster. Just kidding, but not really.
The players need to post in here to discuss the split of the loot and what they are going to do with it and then we need to level up.
Particularly since I will be posting the next encounter as soon as the judges weigh in.
Also, don't worry that the loot has been light so far, it picks up.
Yeah I'm not too hurt with where the sorcerer currently is. It actually plays into what I say about sorcerers as a whole -- at these lower levels it's pretty hard to be extremely useful with such a narrow scope. In many situations he can still contribute something, but he's only really hoping in specific situations.
I think this will become less and less of a problem as he gains levels, but only time will tell.
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Yeah I'm not too hurt with where the sorcerer currently is. It actually plays into what I say about sorcerers as a whole -- at these lower levels it's pretty hard to be extremely useful with such a narrow scope. In many situations he can still contribute something, but he's only really hoping in specific situations.
I think this will become less and less of a problem as he gains levels, but only time will tell.
In defense of sorcerers, if he had known grease or color spray he would have dominated the first set of encounters, since he could have cast either spell several times. And a charisma based sorcerer would have done just as well in the second set.
Yeah but it's the longer term play I'm going with here. If I had grabbed two different bloodlines I would have still had one spell, and honestly grease, grease, grease or color spray a lot would have been at least as boring (what's more grease isn't that hot if they don't intend to move).
I do think (again) that has we get more levels the sorcerer I am building will have more to contribute in a lot of neat ways (the fact he's not going to have to use spells as often for mundane activities should help with longevity).
Now Salis would probably contribute the most in a less combat oriented campaign (in a spy vs spy campaign he would be a super fish in water honestly).
I think level 4 on is when we'll really see Salis pick up.
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Yeah but it's the longer term play I'm going with here. If I had grabbed two different bloodlines I would have still had one spell, and honestly grease, grease, grease or color spray a lot would have been at least as boring (what's more grease isn't that hot if they don't intend to move).
I do think (again) that has we get more levels the sorcerer I am building will have more to contribute in a lot of neat ways (the fact he's not going to have to use spells as often for mundane activities should help with longevity).
Now Salis would probably contribute the most in a less combat oriented campaign (in a spy vs spy campaign he would be a super fish in water honestly).
I think level 4 on is when we'll really see Salis pick up.
Oh I am sure he is going to round into something cool, but I was just defending low level sorcerers.
Some of the choices you made will pay off later, in exchange for early problems. This is part of why I wanted to run this, as so many discussions circle around ideal builds for specific level, and less on developing from first and party integration.
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I will post the next round after Asmodeus Ultima weighs in, everyone can go ahead and level themselves to 2nd now if they like. The party needs to work out how to sort loot (just like in a real game) right now it is pretty easy, but in the next few encounters it may get more tricky as the value items begin to appear.
As a prep for egoish, since he doesn't have the AP, the next encounter will take you to a locked glass factory where you are trying to find an NPC who disappeared. You will need to get into the factory (locked doors) and once inside you will likely have a surprise round on 8 goblins. When 5 are taken out they will flee to join up with am archer Monk 2/Rogue 1 downstairs, where they will discover the NPC they have been seeking.
Fairly brief encounter day, but the next three will make up for it...
As always, feel free to add considered details for the encounter day I may have overlooked that are important to your judgments of value.
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RE: treasure allotment.
How our table works it: Anything that is a straight upgrade for a character generally goes to the PC who needs it most. AC items go to warriors before rear-echelon, spellbooks & wands to whomever can make best use, etc.
Anything that gets replaced as such gets added back into team treasure, so as the primary fighters get upgrades, the casters/etc get the hand-me-downs.
Things that are "up for grabs" like metamagic rods or other things that could be used by multiple PCs get rolled for, highest on a d100 takes it.
Things that are "party useful" go to whomever best uses it, but it remains as team treasure. Things like cure wands, decanter of endless water, or bags of holding fall into this category.
Anything else gets sold & the treasure split evenly.
Since noone will be using the goblin treasure (i assume), we'd be selling everything but the potion of CLW, and splitting the haul 4 ways under this plan.
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Glassworks loot (available after glassworks encounter)
8 dogslicers
composite shortbow (+1 Strength)
ring of protection +1
masterwork thieves’ tools
masterwork flute
silver earrings (25 gp for the pair)
6 pouches of gold dust worth 50 gp each
8 pouches of silver dust worth 5 gp each
10 pp
My opinion is that you will likely not have much time between this quest and the next, as the next is a cave you discover during this quest and the journal more or less puts the party on a timer to get to thistletop before the macguffin macguffins, but I will defer to the judges if they feel otherwise. Probably overnight between each encounter day you can purchase items, except the last when you will likely be staying at thistletop unless you want them reinforcing.
If I missed anything, let me know.
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For those without the books (you really should get them, totally worth the cost of the PDF) you can go here to see the things you are fighting. The monk is Tsuto Kaijitsu.
Since these are conversions, they are somewhat different, but really if you are running this as a good DM you need to convert anyway.
Day One Loot
Encounter Day 1 Loot
Leather armor X 11 55gp
Dogslicer X 11 44gp
Studded leather X 2 25gp
Shortbow with 20 arrows X 2 31gp
Whip .5gp
Short sword 5gp
Potion of cure light wounds 25gp
Small wooden shield 1.5gp
Shortbow with 20 arrows 15.5gp
Mwk horsechopper 155gp
20 gp
assuming someone takes the potion of cure light for emergencies and no one else wants any of the other items, which i don't think anyone does, the party comes away with a haul of 377.5gp. Were i GMing i'd round that off to 400 since the PC's have apparently been helping townsfolk and they probably got good prices for selling the s#!# they didn't need out of gratitude
The options are as i see them, call it 94.375gp each (or 100gp if we get good rates), or buy a happy stick (wand of clw) which i'm not 100% sure we'll even need with the ammount of healing the oracle is kicking around anyway. i think we should vote...
i vote the potion of clw to the monk (fastest on his feet incase we need an emergency potion and probably the one getting hit) and split the cash.
since we're a 4 person party with 3 players i'll just take one vote and let the odd numbers decide it fairly.
I've good with that Egoish.
Salis will be looking for some thieves tools before the glassworks with his portion of the wealth. Afterward well... looks like he'll simply have both the regular set and a masterwork set -- such is life.
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Playing devil's advocate (which is what the discussion thread is about) I Just want to point out with all the discussion about vanish that is it one round per caster level, meaning right now it is only a two round spell.
I also want to say I'm pleased the players have been playing it straight and not metagaming. I think this is going really well.
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That was a quick turnaround. Good job players.
Once the judges are in I'll post the next encounter, obviously this last encounter had some higher quality loot to fight over than the previous ones.
As a preview the next encounter will be underground with very little chance to predict what you are fighting (since no one has been aware of the place for about 10,000 years).
Encounter will include a few unique enemies if you want to take a look in advance.
As well as some Sinspawn (specifically wrathspawn), a Vargouille, and some pits with Zombies at the bottom.
After that, we will level for the final push through Thistletop to end book one.
Vanish doesn't have to last too long though to cop a surprise round -- mainly long enough for the wizard, oracle and sorcerer to get to a concealed position to start from with the monk kicking the ball off.
Once in position as long as they don't really move having stuff in the way should provide enough cover to handle any stealth before combat starts.
I'm having issues with the tandem nature of the Oracle and Wizard builds. I recognize and respect both builds as being good at what they do. The Oracle build is totally awesome, while the Wizard is absolutely what a "god wizard" enthusiast would bring home for dinner.
I just....how do you grade that?!?!? Thus far, I've been giving more credit to the Oracle for making sure the Save or Suck spells stick, but the truth is that without a completely separate character to provide the spells, the Oracle's worth is GREATLY reduced. Essentially, the Oracle is looking as good as it does only because the party has a SoS oriented caster in it. Meanwhile, the Wizard is kind of losing some of the credit that should be his due to the fact that, especially in this theoretical setting, his spells are relying on another PC to some degree.
I also worry that later on the Wizard and Oracle (the Sorcerer as well if it just says "screw it" and decides to cast SoS spells to take advantage of the Oracle's re-rolls) will always top the charts as the wizard can cast SoS spells more frequently due to more spell slots per day. I don't necessarily think this would be the case for either one alone, and yet we're supposed to grade them individually.
Ok. I'm not expecting anything to change, per se, and I will continue to do my job to the best of my ability. I just hate to see the validity of this idea tainted by a kind of niche style build (an awesome one that I would play, mind you). Of course, the conclusion of this whole thing could very well end up being: "Plan with a friend to play a Re-Rollacle and a Sauce Caster tag-team-duet in every game you're in." I've already learned how powerful that can be, at least. So I'm definitely learning stuffs!
@Egoish: This is NOT a blast on you in any way, shape, or form. You've designed two really well made, complimentary characters. I just think the duo is almost too much of a unit (and not because it's being played by one person) to really hash out how they grade individually without large aspects of that grade being determined by another character. Notice that the Oracle's grades almost always reference the Wizard and vice versa. That's a sign, to me at least, that the system is being tainted. It doesn't seem to be nearly as present with the other two characters.
I somewhat agree with Sylvanite. The oracle is amazing with how it synergizes with the wizard and to a slightly lesser extent, the monk, but rare is the party that doesn't have a least one character who will regularly force saving throws to benefit from her. She is a perfect team player, though looks as if she can stand alone (and benefit from her own rerolling abilities if she picks up some SoL spells at later levels), so I would always consider he strong without neccessarily needing to rely on allies. The wizard looks solid enough as well, I'd be proud to have him in a group, but for some reason, I'm linking him and the oracle in my head as a team, and have to keep forcing myself back into the mindset of what he adds regardless if his oracle friend joins him or not. The fact that there is a wizard who will pack some SoL along with the oracle I think is pushing my value of the oracle a bit higher than I otherwise would. Looking at my own ratings, it seems that I am also rating the synergy rather than the characters themselves.
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Keep in mind the re-roll is once a day, within 30 feet.
We have had short days so far, that is about to change.
As to the oracle looking good, I think it is a couple of factors.
1. There is no martial class to do the heavy low level lifting, so the oracle looks good relative to the two arcane casters.
2. The oracle is the only healer.
3. The oracle has been buffing the monk, who is the only damage dealer.
Keep in mind the oracle also can't talk to anyone in combat (tongues) or pull out any wants, staves, potions, etc...without spending a full standard action.
The encounters so far have favored the oracle, but I think you worrying a bit much about a once a day ability. When you have an extended encounter day, that re-roll will likely get burned somewhere along the line.
I feel like the oracle is ahead by default more than dominance at this point.
I didn't even think to pick languages for the sorcerer but do remember that he has 5 of them -- it is conceivable that he and the oracle would have been able to converse even in combat.
Personally I'm not too terribly upset with how things are going -- Oracle is a very strong class with lots of class features, in addition to full spell casting and a strong mechanical base (1 good save, 3/4 bab d8 hit dice, armor/shields with no ASF and 4+ skill points a level -- in addition to more spells known each level than a sorcerer will ever have, crossblooded or not) -- much like the cleric it should be expected to do very well, especially early in a campaign when it can double down as some much more than just a spell caster (before martial class features really start pulling them ahead in damage per round and limited spells supposedly keeps them from being so great on the SOD/SOS and 'god' actions that an arcane caster can support).
In all honesty I'm only looking to break a C~B average with the sorcerer -- I've got him pegged into a spot that most arcane types actively avoid and he's still filling that spot rather well (the rogue) -- I think once more spells become available he'll be able to contribute more damage/drain as things go on, and I'm thinking to look to reach spell to continue on the ranged attacks line (ghoul touch is great if you don't have to close to use it for example). Also having a metamagic feat will help him lead into the even spell levels better (since he'll lack a spell known to really use the higher spell slots at first).
Keep in mind the re-roll is once a day, within 30 feet.
We have had short days so far, that is about to change.
As to the oracle looking good, I think it is a couple of factors.
1. There is no martial class to do the heavy low level lifting, so the oracle looks good relative to the two arcane casters.
2. The oracle is the only healer.
3. The oracle has been buffing the monk, who is the only damage dealer.
Keep in mind the oracle also can't talk to anyone in combat (tongues) or pull out any wants, staves, potions, etc...without spending a full standard action.
The encounters so far have favored the oracle, but I think you worrying a bit much about a once a day ability. When you have an extended encounter day, that re-roll will likely get burned somewhere along the line.
I feel like the oracle is ahead by default more than dominance at this point.
The re-roll is once/day PER CREATURE forced to re-roll. The oracle gets to do it once to every creature she meets, including each of the characters every day if needed. It's once per round in that it requires an immediate action. It basically completely negates baddies' chance to crit (most enemies don't crit more than once during the course of their very short lives, and as long as it hasn't been used to reinforce an SoS that round or give a character a second, crucial save, then it'll be there), as well as backing up almost every SoS spell the wizard wants to cast. Toss in Ill Omen (a first level, no save disaster of a spell), especially if the wizard delays, and baddies will have to make 2 saves in a row (3 at level 5, 4 at 10, etc as the spells get WORSE...which is outrageous) against a big ol' SoS by a wizard specced to unleash SoS spells.
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Loot from the underground encounter (Available after this encounter day)
+1 longsword,
masterwork handaxe,
silver dagger
+1 returning dagger,
miniature tiara worth 50 gp,
miniature black silk
gown worth 25 gp,
obsidian unholy symbol of Lamashtu worth 10 gp
arcane scroll of burning hands
scroll of flaming sphere
Runelord Alaznist’s masterwork ranseur (400 gp)
book is worth 100 gp
wand of shocking grasp (28 charges)
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@Sylvanite
I agree it is a poorly written rule (particularly for DMs who use DM screens if you consider the definition of the word "revealed") but even under the most charitable reading, the oracle is going to have to be on top of the creature in question (within 30 feet) for it to work.
If I were DM, I would simply utilize my DM screen and it would really only be useful for helping friends who missed saves.
Perhaps we should FAQ it?
@Sylvanite
I agree it is a poorly written rule (particularly for DMs who use DM screens if you consider the definition of the word "revealed") but even under the most charitable reading, the oracle is going to have to be on top of the creature in question (within 30 feet) for it to work.
If I were DM, I would simply utilize my DM screen and it would really only be useful for helping friends who missed saves.
Perhaps we should FAQ it?
Hmm. I hadn't even thought about the fact that it might not be useful depending on if the DM rolls in the open or not, as I always roll in the open.
I think it does need an FAQ. (Things like this are why Ultimate Magic is viewed with extreme prejudice by myself and people I know). Either it forces the DM to roll in the open or it doesn't seem to work as intended...but how it is written, if the DM rolls in the open, seems obscenely powerful, especially for a first level ability.
As for the encounters, we're finally starting to get some crazy stuff going down! Erylium is a BASTARD, and most parties have serious trouble taking her down. I think that, as we're using misfortune and with Ill Omen, that this group is good at boss killing though, as the oracle wizard tandem can force a boss to Save or Lose three times on one spell.
That said, it's interesting to note that this also may play out in a way that the wizard would have no SoS spells left by the time Erylium is encountered. The players have no way of knowing she is there, and if they simply take the wrong route, she could be the last thing found, after other tough fights. Even then, I'm not sure the group does enough damage while she is possibly stunned from color spray to put her down. She's not a real threat tho due to her low damage and the amount of healing the group has via the oracle. Just strikes me as a stalemate waiting to happen.
For what it's worth, Ciretose, the version you linked to (at least for Erylium, didn't look at Korvus) is a conversion of Erylium to Pathfinder. It's different than what is actually in the book. I'm not sure which you want us to use (makes a difference as AC in book is 22 PLUS a probable shield of faith spell vs. 20 plus the SoF spell in the conversion). 24 AC vs. 22 AC for this group is a HUGE difference, especially considering that she's almost impossible to flank. A 24 AC turns into 17 when stunned, which is still really tough for this group, and her HD mean even if Color Spray is available and they get it to stick, it'll only be one round. Did I mention her DR?
Thoughts?
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They are all conversions, which I am fine with since we are using pathfinder rather than 3.5.
Part of why I wanted multiple judges is so everyone can reflect on how their table runs. For example I hide most rolls, you don't.
Answer how it would go in your game if you were running, and if the games run differently, that is what we are learning about.
Also, color spray is mind effecting, which is going to make this whole set interesting...I agree the question is if it is saved for that fight or not, but even so it is a one round stun with her hit dice.
They are all conversions, which I am fine with since we are using pathfinder rather than 3.5.
Ah. I see. I thought at some point you had specifically said we were going to play it exactly as it is in the book. I'm probably mistaken, though. I'll have to check out the conversions for a bunch of the upcoming baddies, as they may be much easier or much harder than what the books has.
I'm interested to see how you want to handle itemization. If we're converting, then are we making +stat items into either belts or headbands only? Or are we allowing the random slot ability boosters that drop throughout the AP?
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My concern was with allowing anyone here to make adjustments. If we are using a standard that none of us can alter, that works for me.
Ashiel has a history of moving goal posts and creating strawmen, and I didn't want that level of flexibility if I was going to work with her. This group doesn't have that issue.
My concern was with allowing anyone here to make adjustments. If we are using a standard that none of us can alter, that works for me.
Ashiel has a history of moving goal posts and creating strawmen, and I didn't want that level of flexibility if I was going to work with her. This group doesn't have that issue.
Makes sense. I'm totally cool with all of it, just enjoying being involved and not having a specific axe to grind.
Sorry I've been away for a few days. I've not read the gradings in the gameplay thread as yet so anything i post here is entirely based on what i've read about the oracle/wizard interaction.
One thing i would mention is i built the oracle first, as a "perfect" healer. it negates damage, as it levels it will be able to remove conditions and be a very strong healer, it will take a few buffs to make its self more effective at swinging and a couple of save or sucks if the party doesn't have them already. Even if i was in a party with all martial characters i would take Eldritch Heritage and focus on the arcane bloodline to get the wizard spells feat and pick up some of the better save or sucks.
The wizard is what i see as a quintisential god wizard, going first disabling enemies so the party can mop up the npc's without taking much damage. at low levels save or sucks are the name of the game, as it gets higher level it will be casting no save just suck spells and mixing in some of the more powerful save or suck spells as well. it does work in tandem well with the oracles reroll ability but any caster will, even the sorcerer if it choses to take a few SoS.
Misfortune is a horrid ability, and it gets worse when you factor in Fortune at level 5 which is the same ability so 2/day per creature inside 30ft.
On the crit negation if you GM fiat the ability to suck then thats what you do, but as soon as you declare potential crit i say reroll. if you say confirmed crit i say reroll the crit threat. if you play any other way you ruin not only this ability but the divine interferance feat (which this oracle will also be taking), rerolls are very very powerful and probably should be more limited but they are not and moving the goalposts mid experiment is not a fair method of judging. however i think the point of this experiment was to show where classes that people say are poor are actually very strong, and this oracle kicks cleric ass...
I've read the judges responses and i agree the oracle is still a very very stong character.
I think the monk should be second since IF the wizard doesn't end the encounter he will be doing most of the work along with the oracle and he can potentially end the major npc encounter with a stunning fist.
I would have rated the wizard third since he can potentially end the encounters very easily and with clever use of spells could potentially make it a very easy day, but then again it might just fluff.
I think the sorcerer does have to come last at the moment since it just doesn't have enough spells known to really change combats at the moment, however depending on how effective the wizards SoS spells are the sorc could be just as effective as the wiz simply by dealing some damage with the arcane bolt ability.
i think i agree with the judges overall scores but i think the wizard has been hefted a little high over the monk with peoples propensity to see SoS spells as encounter enders when they are really just facilitators in my own opinion, admittedly the wizard can now really contribute to all the encounters but a few good rolls negate his action.
It may take me some time to post for the next set of encounters, its the end of the year at work and we have a load of stuff to do so i am rushed off my feet, i will try and do all the reading i need to do and get some tactics posted up for saturday evening.
Before we go ahead and post another load of encounters though we need to split and sort treasure, do we have any time between the warehouse and the next set of encounters to craft?
I'm sure that if the sorcerer wants to craft a few scrolls the wizard will happily help him as well. the wizard might want to spend some money on getting some extra 2st level spells as well as creating some more scrolls and since we've had a cash influx we might want to do a little shopping anyway, the ring needs to be given to someone, most likely the monk. If we have long enough the monk could also pay for the wizard to craft him some scrolls of mage armour to use before obvious combats as well, if the sorcerer wants to do the same it could increase both their AC's significantly.
I just read Erylium and its such a poorly designed fight it makes me weep for the potential of the rest of the AP, a creature that is physically and magically not a threat to any 2nd level party but is basicly impossible to kill without a paladin or a well prepared archer. I find it rather stupid to put a creature with a damage reduction of 5 and fast healing 2 against a party of second level adventurers and not have put in at least a dagger that can overcome the damage reduction, poor adventure design.
Getting hit by the creature has a 1/3 chance of being non-lethal damage and even if it does deal damage the oracle will need to heal one average once every 4 rounds. its dagger damage is wrong as thrown weapons still take the strength negative to their damage so it actually deals 1d2-1 damage with its dagger (1 or 1 non-lethal), summoned monsters from the 1 or 2 list are an annoyance at best and hardly a threat in pathfinder even lasting for 6 rounds they can be safely ignored by a party fighting defensively.
Overall even before stepping into the encounter i have to ask are you ment to defeat the encounter or simply walk away and get a cold iron weapon? As a GM i would probably have the Quasit toy with the party for 10 rounds then simply escape, any Int 13 outsider is going to realise that eventually the 4 people who are having trouble hurting it will work out a viable tactic to kill it before it manages to kill them.
I am leaning towards getting the monk to grapple the little blighter and then having the oracle pick up the monks biggest weapon, getting enlarged by the wizard and hammering it in the face until it dies.
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@Egoish
I don't think it is moving the goalposts, I think it is playstyle and poorly written rules. They make a DM screen because many if not most DM's hide rolls, and the rule specifically says you have to make the decision before the outcome is revealed. I always read the ability as intended to save your peers from bad rolls, not as a way to make enemies fail saves, so the Devs need to clarify I think.
Which means this experiment has successfully identified an issue. Which is a good thing.
I may create a thread when I get home to get it FAQ'ed, as it is broken to be able to make every enemy re-roll SODs as a first level ability with no per day cap, but I also see your concern.
As to Erylium, I agree it is possible to leave and come back (my group did) however she also can regroup (to a certain extent) as she is able to create more sinspawn.
On the "things to improve" section Erylium and on other later encounter are the two cited as the most problematic. The people who like Erylium argue it is a way to teach your players they can't just buzz through every encounter.
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Regarding the misfortune ability, due to the name I cannot accept the premise that it is meant to be used primarily on one's teammates. On the other hand, I do hide my rolls when running a game, so we do have a conundrum. I believe the best compromise would be to speak with the oracle's player ahead of time about what kind of rolls concerns her, and give her the option at that time to use the ability. Ex: Player has stated that she would like to be given the option to use it every time an enemy rolls a crit threat or an important save. Boss enemy rolls a saving throw for a SoL and the DM tells the player "I rolled a 12; use misfortune or not?" The actual roll, like all of them, was behind the screen, and the player still does not know if that 12 was a success or not, but the reroll power can be used as, I believe, it was intended.
Regarding Erylium, yes, this was another poorly designed encounter, more annoying than anything. The party I ran ended up grappling her with a flying leap from the barbarian, stuffing her in a sack, and dragging her all the way up to Sandpoint where they got the help of the local clerics to "banish" her with holy water. Lots and lots of holy water.
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Regarding the misfortune ability, due to the name I cannot accept the premise that it is meant to be used primarily on one's teammates. On the other hand, I do hide my rolls when running a game, so we do have a conundrum. I believe the best compromise would be to speak with the oracle's player ahead of time about what kind of rolls concerns her, and give her the option at that time to use the ability. Ex: Player has stated that she would like to be given the option to use it every time an enemy rolls a crit threat or an important save. Boss enemy rolls a saving throw for a SoL and the DM tells the player "I rolled a 12; use misfortune or not?" The actual roll, like all of them, was behind the screen, and the player still does not know if that 12 was a success or not, but the reroll power can be used as, I believe, it was intended.
I created a thread and FAQ'ed it. I think we can all agree if the players are able to force every boss to re-roll SoD spells from a first level ability with no per day limit other than per creature...problem.
My advice to judges until there is a ruling is to adjudicate it as you would at your table. At my table, there is a GM screen and I use it, YMMV and it doesn't matter because I'm not a judge :)
It's really no worse than the witch's ability -- the major difference is the witch's ability takes a standard action, can be extended and has an effect on every roll the creature makes until the next turn and forces the lowest to be used.
This one simply allows you to once a turn (and once a day per monster) screw with one roll and it doesn't force the use of the lower (instead allowing the second which could be higher or lower).
Personally it's almost impossible for this ability to have any use if it isn't allowed after there is some clue as to if the roll was successful or not.
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It's really no worse than the witch's ability -- the major difference is the witch's ability takes a standard action, can be extended and has an effect on every roll the creature makes until the next turn and forces the lowest to be used.
This one simply allows you to once a turn (and once a day per monster) screw with one roll and it doesn't force the use of the lower (instead allowing the second which could be higher or lower).
Personally it's almost impossible for this ability to have any use if it isn't allowed after there is some clue as to if the roll was successful or not.
It is still useful in letting allies re-roll, just not particularly useful against enemies.
A standard action in exchange for an effect that lasts for one round (2 rounds at 8 and 3 at 16) is very different than an immediate action usable whenever it best serves your needs.
One requires the witch to functionally use a turn in the hopes that the next round it will come into play. The creature could move out of the range on it's turn for example, functionally negating a standard action.
One it doesn't matter if I hide rolls or not as a DM, one it does.
Just very poorly thought out and almost certainly not playtested.
Except the standard action affects everything the target does, and again can be extended -- it's not just "oh this one save or attack we need to land or miss" it's "Every single thing it does until next round at least."
Including all attack rolls, save throws, skill use, ability checks, and concentration checks.
That's a huge benefit right there. Also it is right in the name -- misfortune. I mean if it had the "roll twice on this check and take the lowest" I would be all, "Alright fine that makes sense." But it doesn't -- the only time it's useful is when you know it will cause them to lose... it's the whole point of the ability.
Is it strong? Sure, but it's a one shot deal in any round and only once per character.
If the sorcerer gets unlucky and is going to fail a save and its used to save him he's done with that ability for the day regardless of what else happens and for the round no one else can be saved or doomed with the ability.
It doesn't even guarantee success or failure either -- something that the hex comes much closer to doing since it specifically states "take the lowest" (or in the case of fortune take the highest -- fortune only works once a round too).
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Except the standard action affects everything the target does, and again can be extended -- it's not just "oh this one save or attack we need to land or miss" it's "Every single thing it does until next round at least."
Including all attack rolls, save throws, skill use, ability checks, and concentration checks.
That's a huge benefit right there. Also it is right in the name -- misfortune. I mean if it had the "roll twice on this check and take the lowest" I would be all, "Alright fine that makes sense." But it doesn't -- the only time it's useful is when you know it will cause them to lose... it's the whole point of the ability.
Is it strong? Sure, but it's a one shot deal in any round and only once per character.
If the sorcerer gets unlucky and is going to fail a save and its used to save him he's done with that ability for the day regardless of what else happens and for the round no one else can be saved or doomed with the ability.
It doesn't even guarantee success or failure either -- something that the hex comes much closer to doing since it specifically states "take the lowest" (or in the case of fortune take the highest -- fortune only works once a round too).
But it also requires an arcane caster to remain within 30 feet of an enemy and use their standard action on something other than casting a spell.
Having it as an immediate action means I can do whatever I would normally doing AND do this.
I posted a thread with an FAQ, in my game I would still roll behind the screen, like always. In your game, and in the judges game, YMMV. Hopefully we'll get some clarification and/or a correction.