baumfluch

hi together,

had a discussion about sniping as two-weapon-warrior(TWW)/rogue.
Lets say the TWW carries 2 handcrossbows or light crossbows.
a friend came up with the idea, that a TWW can fire two shots while sniping since firing both weapons is still 1 standard-Action for him

At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally.

I think its not possible. Sniping is basicly Standard Action (attack) and move Action (hide again). if you put them together you remain unseen. but i think it allows only 1 shot, no matter how many shots you can possibly do within a Standard Action:

Standard:

you can make ONE ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again

and the move action

However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

I would go with the specific, very clear wording of Sniping: you get ONE ranged shot. Period.

The standard rules let you, generally, fire one shot as a standard action. The class feature lets you, generally, fire two shots as a standard action - this replaces the standard general rule.

As we frequently say around here, "specific beats general". Since the class feature is just an upgraded general rule and the Sniping rule is a specific rule, Sniping should beat the class feature.

I'd likely let him.

I don't see why this classes specific abilities are trumped by something general.

You are caps locking on one attack. But the very first quote says one attack too. You can make 2 attacks as one attack each as a standard.

Seems clear you can do 2 and move action to hide.

@Cavall:
you´re mixing something up.
You always can shoot as Standard Action, and then use your move Action to use stealth. in that case, you are not stealthed during you shot, and go stealthed afterwards.
generally you can shoot 1 time while performing this action-Combo.
The TWW can shoot twice in that Scenario, because his more specific rule "doublestrike" rule allows you to do that.

But this is not sniping.
When you attack you can usually never use stealth, so you are always spotted in the upper Szenario while performing the shot:

It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking

The specific rule "sniping" allows you to do this Combo while STAYING stealthed whilst performing it.

I can´t see how TWWs doublestrike would break this rule. it only breaks the rule, that requires you to do a full-attack-action to attack with both your hands, but it does not break the 1 shot Limitation in sniping. It´s like using vital strike or something. Vital strike is also performed with a Standard-Attack-Action, but you wont be able to perform 2 vital strikes using doublestrike. its basicly the same thing

I'm with DM_Blake: sniping is massively clear that you can make one attack and immediately use stealth again.

Any interpretation that turns "one attack" into anything involving two or more attacks is just plain wrong. Sniping does not allow you to "take the attack action and then immediately use stealth again". If it said that, I'd happily allow this. It lets you take one attack. Period.

Now, clearly there is an implicit "taking the attack action" since that is pretty much the only option to allow you to take the ranged attack in question, but because of the language used (one attack), and because this is the rules forum, I have to say no.

(Interesting point: using stealth after making a ranged attack is a move action, but the general rules text could be read to imply that the whole process of shooting a single ranged attack and hiding again is a move action. Unfortunately for this interpretation the "action" text of the stealth skill disallows this by making the stealth check a move action in its own right.)

I'm with DM_Blake: sniping is massively clear that you can make one attack and immediately use stealth again.

Any interpretation that turns "one attack" into anything involving two or more attacks is just plain wrong. Sniping does not allow you to "take the attack action and then immediately use stealth again". If it said that, I'd happily allow this. It lets you take one attack. Period.

Now, clearly there is an implicit "taking the attack action" since that is pretty much the only option to allow you to take the ranged attack in question, but because of the language used (one attack), and because this is the rules forum, I have to say no.

(Interesting point: using stealth after making a ranged attack is a move action, but the general rules text could be read to imply that the whole process of shooting a single ranged attack and hiding again is a move action. Unfortunately for this interpretation the "action" text of the stealth skill disallows this by making the stealth check a move action in its own right.)

The Stealth:Sniping language is vague on purpose because not all ranged attacks are made as a standard action/attack action (specifically I'm thinking of spells, which incidentally, could even take a very long time to cast before getting the free action attack). The problem has nothing to do with the delivery method or amount of time it takes to generate the attack. Doublestrike is disallowed purely on the basis that it's 2 attacks, which violates RAW.

To break it down further, Doublestrike is not a modification of the attack action, it is its own standard action... I'd have more pause if it was an actual modification.

EDIT: By modification, I'm referring to things like Double Barreled guns more than Vital Strike. But RAW, that modification is disallowed as well, even if RAI suggests it's an equal amount of effort.