Night of the Werewolf (Inactive)

Game Master Kinetic_cards

I will post the map for this battle soon.

I only bring this up, because I remember asking DM, and he had offered rerolls for getting some semblance of average to decent HP.

@Sandru:

I made the following rolls:
HP:
6d8 ⇒ (8, 3, 3, 2, 8, 1) = 25

I had missed that we get max @1st, but rolled it anyway. Then I added 6 favored class bonuses for a total of 31.

I thought we were rolling so that the sum would be average+1 (i.e, 6x4+1), not avg+1 per roll (or 5x5).

If it is the latter, as you suggest, then hell yes my HP are a bit low. Also, I clearly forgot to add my CON bonus, like a fool!

So it should be at least 37, if not 39.

I've been wondering about some purely mechanical questions. Umbral Dragons have negative energy breath, right? Well, what save is that? Will, like negative energy usually is? Save for half or save for none?

@Sandru:

I made the following rolls:
HP:
6d8 ⇒ (8, 3, 3, 2, 8, 1) = 25

I had missed that we get max @1st, but rolled it anyway.

Now if we were sitting at the table rolling these "extraordinary gentlemen" up... I could imagine a DM (who had Umbral Dragons in his pocket) say... "Well, Max HP @ 1st level is a given... so just take your first 5 rolls, and don't forget your CON bonus.

Which would bring you to a respectable 44 HP, just 1 point shy of Avg+1. And, still 24 pts less than the tank.

@DM, fair?

Breath weapons require a reflex save. Negative energy usually requires a fortitude save if it would drain levels, but that is a different ability that older umbral dragons have (negative levels on bite or claw attack), so that doesn't apply. This dragon has a straightforward breath attack, so it is reflex damage. The save is for half.

The negative energy matters because the breath weapon doesn't harm undead, though it doesn't heal them either (Blackacre's knowledge check).

Which would bring you to a respectable 44 HP, just 1 point shy of Avg+1.

@DM, fair?

That is okay.

Breath Weapons "Some breath weapons allow a Fortitude save or a Will save instead of a Reflex save."

What about that entry? I am not arguing your point, merely trying to clarify, as I am not yet convinced either way.

I think it's Reflex Save (default) unless otherwise stated in the "Breath Weapon" entry. Also, probably keyed to "effect".

HP Damage (basic breath weapon) is usually Reflex Save, you're trying not to get hurt.

Ability Damage/Energy Drain might be Fortitude Save, system shock (remember that?!) check.

Phatasm/Illusion/Hallucination - might be a Will Save.

Or some combination, requiring multiple saves... one heck of breath weapon, we should carry mints.

I didn't want to look, but you made me!!! Under Umbral Dragons... the older ones get Shadow Breath, for ability damage and Fort Save. Almost a death effect.

And not to meta-game much, but... SPLIT UP F'ers!

Oh, are we in combat? Is Blackacre up? Wasn't sure if we were waiting on a green light of some sort.

What Sandru wrote is correct. My explanation above is how it applies in this case.

Combat has started. It is Blackacre's turn.

I take it that means we are done with the talking and I should start taking swings/shots?

Yes.

Sorry... just resonates with Sandru, who is seeing the Dragon as a pawn, slave... of some sort. Evil things can be enslaved, too.

And, Sandru is BIG on freedom or Free Will (he's been dipping into Caromarc's fancy books on Fillasophie.

Sandru still counts as flanking though?

Can you roll init for the ogre - isn't my critter. I'm hoping that as the only thing he's in contact with that is alive is the dragon he'll go it. Could go very bad though.

I think the ogre zombie goes after Quinn.

Rules question - would Scent compensate for the darkness similarly to Darkvision, or be irrelevant?

I looked up some other threads on the messageboards about this. Scent can help someone detect something is there, but they'd still not ignore the concealment miss chance 50%. It works more approximately to blindsense than it does darkvision. Since you already know the dragon is there, I'm not sure it would help you a lot in this case.

@Blackacre - I see your 19 damage and call.

I almost peed my pants, thought that 18 was attack... Crit threat.

LOL.

Attack had +2 flank, +2 rage, +2 charge. Damage Str 22, +6 x1.5 = +9, +1 magic = +10

Ok, Ianez already called his action for the first round, although he did forget to roll 1d20 - should I call mine, as La Siréene is after him in initiative?

Uh, yeah, just noticed - you forgot to put La Siréene among the creatures that can see in the darkness. Aasimar's get darkvision, so La Siréene does too.

I just read up on Charging... was all that illegal? Oy... we can get rid of the charging I guess.

So Attack was 21. Everything else can stay the same... Move can be shorter (away).

I just read up on Charging... was all that illegal? Oy... we can get rid of the charging I guess.

So Attack was 21. Everything else can stay the same... Move can be shorter (away).

He's entangled, so that should still be a hit. Shouldn't be a problem. Good thing not to lower your AC to much, anyway.

He's entangled, so that should still be a hit. Shouldn't be a problem. Good thing not to lower your AC to much, anyway.

True, but it just seemed bad-azz! Also, assuming he's Large (long) - as a dragon and doesn't get reach. So, no AoO on the return! If he's entangled, might not get one anyway... Dunno.

I'm just RPing! DAM the torpedoes, full speed AHEAD!

Oops, that is right. Darkvision applies to dragon, Sandru, La Siréene, and MM.

I'm going to assume that 50% chance of missing is any roll result of 1-50 on a 1d100. Just making sure that we are all on the same page.

I'm just RPing! DAM the torpedoes, full speed AHEAD!

"Man the torpedoes"

@Sandru, did you change your armor? Is tumbling to avoid an attack of opportunity the same issue as before with the hell hounds?

Why would the entangled condition mean it results in a hit?

Studded leather (light), we're good

Entangled gives -4 penalty to Dex, effectively -2 AC.making up for the Charge bonus To Hit. Assuming Sandru hit with original post.

Thanks. Also, why would the dragon not get reach? Large creatures have a natural reach of 10 ft or more and reach is listed in the dragon's description.

Quinn, map posted in Campaign Info tab.

@DM - If you deem the flaming sphere a source of magical light, could change darkness to dim light by 'light rules'. Sorry to complicate things... But, although unintended could help Quinn.

Flaming sphere is the same level spell as Darkness. Only higher level spells can raise the illumination level.

Didn't read description fully. Maybe changes based on age. However you want to do it is fine with me. Another acrobatics check, up to you.

Please roll for me if needed. AC is 24 if AoO, dodge, mobility.

@La Siréene - You rolled an extra d20? I wasn't going to apply the unstable arcane magic field to others besides Caromarc, but do you think it would be fun to do? We can if you want. >:)

@Sandru - No, that's okay. You tumbled beyond reach and the dragon is entangled anyway.

Did the description in Bestiary 2 ever get errata'd? According to it, a Young umbral dragon, though Large, has no reach. Most of the other Large dragons have reach with their bite attack, but not with any of their other attacks.

Young has reach with bite. Don't forget -2 attack while entangled.

If its a young umbral, this is a TPK. :)

The SRD lists the dragon as having a reach of 5 ft. (10 ft. with bite). So, I dunno. We'll see how it plays.

@Ianez - your attack is subject to the dragon's concealment, is that correct?

Doh! Didn't realize the Battle Map was in Campaign Info.

@Quinn - That's fine for concealment, you can roll 1d100.

@La Siréene & others - I'm going to require the extra 1d20 roll only for Caromarc. Otherwise, that dynamic has the potential to makes things a little too difficult.

Yes, it is. I'll roll that in the IC thread.

Ianez, I rolled for you (you were successful against the concealment), but the dragon made its Fort save.

Spotted that when I checked the IC thread; thanks for taking care of that. It was worth a try.

It was a good idea.

Flaming sphere is the same level spell as Darkness. Only higher level spells can raise the illumination level.

Technically, not true. Opposing spells can dispel/negate spells of equal level or lower, but not higher. Shield is proof against Arcane Missile, for instance. In the case of illumination, the 3rd level Daylight spell can dispel up to 3rd level in darkness spells.

This is moot in this case, however, since the Dispel DC would be 22 on a Young Umbral, so I'd need a 16 or better on the caster level check, and my "for appropriate use" d20 only came up an 11.

@Ianez - And that really was a good idea, Ianez.

@GM - Thanks - treating a creature unable to move as circumstantially unable to make Reflex saves is a reasonable house rule.

@Sandru - TPK? We've taken almost half its health, and the first round of combat isn't over. No, this is a reasonable boss fight. We are supposed to assume bosses will kill us. Otherwise, how else will we feel delicious, delicious terror?

Lighting... In general yes, but I think Darkness specifically mentions level requirements. We need Fireball for a glimpse. LOL

I think the big boss DM is being nice. 6d8 breath? Death effect with multiattack, +15 to Hit, delicious enough thanks. Reach.

Dragon has buffed HP and a few tricks up its sleeve. ;)

Dragon has buffed HP and a few tricks up its sleeve. ;)

...you do realize a regular Young Umbral has a CR our APL +3, which is the maximum advised within the rules, dubbed "epic challenge"?

As is, avg damage output can sideline any of us. One round. Round robin, TPK. Might be able to knock out two of us per round. :)

OTOH, that's vs. a party of four; OTOOH, that's four 15-point characters. The challenge level is highly dependent on party composition and monster capabilities at that point.

A couple of examples from two campaigns I'm running. In a KM game, I have a party of six 15-pt characters; human wizard (teleportation specialist), halfling court bard, human cleric of Erastil, half-elf cavalier, human ranger, human paladin. At second level, they took down a grizzly bear (CR 4 creature) in two rounds; the cavalier was down to only a couple of HP, but that was the only damage the party took. OTOH, in another campaign, a party of four 4th-level 20-pt characters nearly got TPK'd by a seugathi (CR 6 creature). Granted, a big chunk of that was because of the thing's aura, which seems to me to be kind of an overpowered ability for a CR 6 foe--DC 20 Will save in a 30' radius every round to avoid being confused, and the thing can pick the confusion table result for any one foe as a free action? Good grief.

^ This.

Your party seems to be doing fine. I'll adjust as needed to have a good fight. What fun is downing the thing in one go? Let it chew on you a little.

*Gives Nameless a noogie*

One thing that'll help us is that half the party members (less NPCs and Caromarc's entourage) have good Reflex saves and evasion.

First - I accounted for the party size. We are level six, Young Umbral is CR10, which makes this CR+4, but since we are more than 4 players, our APL is +1, making it CR+3, as I said.

Also, I agree that the CR system is less then foolproof. The crux is, this is a Dragon, a creature type infamous for its difference in power to things of equal CR.

I am not saying a Young Dragon is something we can’t handle - I think it’s an excellent choice of opponent which I endorse greatly. I just hadn't considered the implications that the steam punk modification to the dragons might impact its combat ability.

*Glomps Network*

I did not point out CR as an argument against the dragon - as I said, I have confidence in this team - I intended merely to raise a discussion on the subject.