Oversized throw


Rules Discussion


So I am interested in Oversized Throw barbarian feat but it is written in lose terms which leaves a lot of to interpretation to gm. Since I want to use it in a PFS based pbp server it requires better understanding.

The questionable interactions are as fallows:

1) Since size of the object as a weapon is not specified how does it interact with titan mauler and rage thrower.
2) Since it does not mention unattended objects does that mean you can grab and throw things people are holding or even other creatures?
3) There is mention of picking "A chunk of earth". Since you are only limited by the max bulk you carry how big of a thing are we talking about. Would a medium creature be able to pull out 1x1x1 cube of earth?
4) How would titan stature interact with this since you can pick up objects as large as 3x3x3. If you throw a boulder this size onto three adjacent units and target the middle one would the other two be effected, would they be moved out of the boulder path?
5) Assuming you can leave a hole in the ground: how would that interact with people standing above this ground?

Bonus question assuming you are enlarged, you had snares when you were enlarged and you are placing these snares what is the size of the deployed snare?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

1) Actually unclear. Expect some variation.

2) Obviously no.

3) if thats 1x1x1 squares, not feet, or 525 cubic feet of dirt,, you're talking about pulling out thousands of pounds of dirt. That's more than you can lift.

4) and you're DEFINITELY not lifting 3375 cubic feet of dirt or rock.

5) N/A

Bonus Question: You craft the snare in place when you put it in, and it is still the normal size.


How would you calculate the bulk of 1x1x1 cube of dirt, could you lift that much when you are large? when huge?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If it holds together well enough to be a single object, we aren't talking about loose potting soil. General reference numbers for fill projects put a cubic yard of dirt at 2000 lbs, which gives you about 74 lbs per cubic foot. To give the benefit of a doubt, though, we could cut down to a 3rd of that, giving us something like double the density of potting soil and still be unreasonable. I dont see ripping entire grid cubes out of the ground as a feasible reading even when sized up.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I know that PF2uses Bulk, not lbs. There is no bulk rule for how much an amount of dirt is, so it comes down to the GM judgement call and real world measurements are what we have to form our experience and aid our judgement. Yes, GM judgement applies just the same in PFS as in a home game for anything that isn't written in the rules.


1x1x1 square = 125 cubic feet, assuming 74 lb per cubic feet and taking into account the bulk rules that 10 lb can be considered 1 bulk a normal cube in battle map would be: ~93 bulk.
Huge creature treats 2 bulk as 1 l bulk that means 93 bulk becomes ~4.7 bulk. Assuming that maximum bulk limit is 10 + str (7 max) + hefty hauler and lets say + lifting belt = 20 bulk. Taking into account that huge creatures have 4x bulk capacity means they could lift up to 80 bulk. This then concludes they should be easily lift 1x1x1 = 5 bulk; 2x2x2=40 bulk; but not 3x3x3. This would of course could vary on density.

4)Also please consider that there are lighter objects that could be 3x3x3 such as a small ship and therefore would still require ruling. A good example would be a corpse of a huge creature that as a bulk of 24 as per rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:
Huge creature treats 2 bulk as 1 l bulk that means 93 bulk becomes ~4.7 bulk.

This is not correct. A huge creature treats an item of 2 bulk as one light bulk. It does not divide the bulk of an item larger than 2 bulk by 20.

Quote:
)Also please consider that there are lighter objects that could be 3x3x3 such as a small ship and therefore would still require ruling. A good example would be a corpse of a huge creature that as a bulk of 24 as per rules.

In that case, still only one creature would be hit. What happens with where the boat ends up on the map and if any creatures are displaced as a result is totally a case by case judgement call. No universal rule that you can assume to hold every time.


If you truelly can't treat 2 bulk as light for huge creature then the bulk rules are depressing. World lifting record is at 264 kg equating to 580 lb or 58 bulk. This would mean that real world medium creature can lift prety much the same as 27 times as massive creature in game.
On the other hand, a huge creature beeing 24 bulk means 2.7 tons to equate 24 bulk so it's confusing.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Bulk to weight conversion is not a direct "X lbs = Y bulk" mathematical relationship. The 10 lbs thing is a VERY loose rule of thumb that does not scale up linearly.


One rule of thumb is that you don't gain any abilities not explicitly laid out. Ex. The ability to throw chunks of earth will not give you a burrow speed. A lot of your questions feel like trickery to gain bonus abilities, like a larger snare because you're larger.
A GM might make exceptions, especially for Rule of Cool, but don't expect any of these things to work nor abilities to interact for bonus stuff. A basic tenet of PF2 is abilities interact as little as possible unless in prescribed ways.

---
As for Bulk, as Hammerjack pointed out it's not a linear system. IMO the system collapses outside of equipping one's PC. (I much preferred weight & encumbrance, but so many tables nixed that and Paizo wanted item-maximums to be sort of relevant, so Bulk was invented to patch that (non-)problem.)

Anyway, Bulk seems more based on relative difficulty in the loosest sense. It's spitballing all the way. Sometimes the Bulk system seems exponential or even logarithmic! That's why you can get two very similar objects weighing 1 Bulk even though one is twice the weight of the other, or 19 Shortswords weighing much as 1 longsword (assuming no other L Bulk items to tip the difference).
So any rigorous analysis doesn't work. Bulk falls on the "narrative" side of the rules spectrum rather than the "mechanics" side.


The intention of the feat is to throw large objects as the name implies and that is what i am interested in. To be more specific since throw is based on dex i am more interested in the aplication of the feat to reposition large objects more than damage. When not taking into account titan stature the lack of large objects is solved with taking a chunk of earth. However, once you become huge there are very few relatively large objects to throw around so the question is the feat intended to make these objects with the afore mentioned chunk of earth.

Furthermore, burrow spead of 15 feet per 2 actions that can only be used in combat seems of very small significance and did not even cross my mind.

Grand Lodge

Just a fun bit of Maths as I was reading the news:

125 cubic feet * 10 * 60 = 75000 cubic feet per hour

That is slightly faster as the specialized suction dredger they want to use at the Suez Canal to get the stuck ship free again. That manages 70.000 cubic feet / hour.

And yes - they use this specialized kit as normal diggers are just way, way too slow.

Maybe they should just get two people with oversized throw in on either side and the ship would be out in no time.

I know - this is Pathfinder and impossible feats are done on a regular basis - but I thought this places it a little bit into perspective.


Throw has rage trait meaning you can use it for ~5 mins per hour and only in combat. Since it's 2 actions you can use it only once per turn witch ads up to 6 throws per minute.
125*6*5= 3750 cubic feet per hour.

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