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As a GM, I will be leading my first scenario that has the players dealing with Darkness (including Greater Darkness).
It appears that one or more players will be bringing in animal companions (presumably with Scent ability) and one or more characters will have Darkvision.
Assuming those parameters, I also assume everyone except the Darkvision characters (if not in Greater Darkness) still has a 50% miss chance since the animals and Darvision characters will surround the foe(s) and the other players will know where to go to, correct?
Of course, as a GM, I kind of want the players to be a tad bit more challenged as those sections are a lot more dangerous if they don't know where the foes are moving. I remember playing this scenario (
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I wonder if you might be in the minority for having enjoyed a darkness-related challenge. Lots of folks hate those types of encounters. Obviously I don't have the data to really know which preference is more common, but please don't assume that your players want to have fun in the same manner that you did.
Now, to reply to your questions a bit more specifically:
Assuming those parameters, I also assume everyone except the Darkvision characters (if not in Greater Darkness) still has a 50% miss chance since the animals and Darvision characters will surround the foe(s) and the other players will know where to go to, correct?
Pinpointing an unseen target's square does not remove the 50% miss chance. Is that what you're asking?
Of course, as a GM, I kind of want the players to be a tad bit more challenged as those sections are a lot more dangerous if they don't know where the foes are moving.
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I think the party will walk all over this one unless I'm missing some finer points here.
Again, this is not necessarily bad. The game is designed with the idea of "solutions" removing large chunks of challenge. For instance, a party that has an easy time against some kind of permanently-invisible rogue because someone is using invisibility purge isn't negating the challenge, it's overcoming the challenge. This is A Good Thing, that the game was designed to have happen.
As for "finer points", you may find my Guide to Light and Darkness helpful.
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Druids are great for dealing with invisibility. It does take a few rounds.
Round 1: The ranger gives the seek command and the general direction. Fido takes a move action to sniff around. If the creature is within 30 feet, Fido knows what direction they're in and moves towards it. If Fido comes next to the creature he automatically knows the square. The next part is a little bit up to the DM, but either the critter should bark or point as a free action, or the owner should be able to tell from the body language that the critter has found something. That will give people the square to attack with a 50% miss chance
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Druids are great for dealing with invisibility. It does take a few rounds.
Round 1: The ranger gives the seek command and the general direction. Fido takes a move action to sniff around. If the creature is within 30 feet, Fido knows what direction they're in and moves towards it. If Fido comes next to the creature he automatically knows the square. The next part is a little bit up to the DM, but either the critter should bark or point as a free action, or the owner should be able to tell from the body language that the critter has found something. That will give people the square to attack with a 50% miss chance
That's great for invisible enemies, but a little harder to pull off in deeper darkness, eh?
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That's great for invisible enemies, but a little harder to pull off in deeper darkness, eh?Druids are great for dealing with invisibility. It does take a few rounds.
Round 1: The ranger gives the seek command and the general direction. Fido takes a move action to sniff around. If the creature is within 30 feet, Fido knows what direction they're in and moves towards it. If Fido comes next to the creature he automatically knows the square. The next part is a little bit up to the DM, but either the critter should bark or point as a free action, or the owner should be able to tell from the body language that the critter has found something. That will give people the square to attack with a 50% miss chance
If the dog gives a "woof!" or growls at something it lets you know the zipcode at least. Speak with critters will probably let you know the square.
The "talk with your critter" part of the wildspeach feat is redundant, wildshape lets you do that already.
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As a GM I cringe a bit when a creature has see in darkness and deeper darkness at will. It can cast deeper darkness and dispel any daylights that come up. The only defense is a heightened continual flame, that I believe is in Jiggys guide.
It's harder than you might think. I've tried to dispel the daylight in two scenarios and each time I've been discovered and killed before I could touch the ohject it was cast on.
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As a GM I cringe a bit when a creature has see in darkness and deeper darkness at will. It can cast deeper darkness and dispel any daylights that come up. The only defense is a heightened continual flame, that I believe is in Jiggys guide.It's harder than you might think. I've tried to dispel the daylight in two scenarios and each time I've been discovered and killed before I could touch the ohject it was cast on.
No, the NPCs have. That's what's supposed to happen to them. They try their shenanigans, the PCs pull out an answer, the NPCs try to adapt/react, the well-prepared PCs triumph as a direct result of having brought a good countermeasure.
Working as intended. :)
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As a GM I cringe a bit when a creature has see in darkness and deeper darkness at will. It can cast deeper darkness and dispel any daylights that come up. The only defense is a heightened continual flame, that I believe is in Jiggys guide.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm pretty sure I was in David's run of this, and his tactics were much appreciated. Among those of us playing, I'm pretty sure that at the time most didn't know what Darkness was let alone Deeper Darkness. As people play more, these are things they hear about and make preparations for, but for someone playing in their first few scenarios mechanics like this are impossible to prepare for (sans having lots of Aasimars around, which we didn't). I also think we'd probably still be there if it weren't for our Brawler that dealt Bleed damage and used his Brawler ability to temporarily learn Blind Fight.
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Working as intended. :)
Oh, I agree. I'm usually happy when my players pull out just the right answer for the problem, but part of my fun is trying to overcome the (sometimes overwhelming) odds. Unless you're saying the NPCs wouldn't try to dispel the daylight if they thought they had the chance, then I'm not sure I agree. What would you do differently?
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Shadow Strike is from UC, right? Plenty of PFS scenarios precede that.
As with other enemies using powerful at-will SLA's or other abilities, it really is up to you as a gm to set the difficulty. Want to cull the herd? Then go all out! Some players appreciate that. Want to gm fun adventures? Have the foes fumle around and act recklessly.
There's a reason just about every dragon encounter statblock in PFS doesn't have a line like "Keeps distance, uses offensive ranged abilities and only engages in melee with flying opponents."
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Oh, I agree. I'm usually happy when my players pull out just the right answer for the problem, but part of my fun is trying to overcome the (sometimes overwhelming) odds. Unless you're saying the NPCs wouldn't try to dispel the daylight if they thought they had the chance, then I'm not sure I agree. What would you do differently?
Working as intended. :)
It's not that I would do something differently, it's that I read your post as being frustrated that you weren't able to succeed at undoing the daylight. However, re-reading your post, maybe that's not what you were saying.
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Jiggy, that was a very nice Darkness summary you did. Thank you.
I don't think I've really been in any games yet where darkness (even just plain dim light) is treated properly. Perhaps one reason is that it adds a tad bit more complication to what might already be a number of things to keep track of in an encounter. That is, trying to account for a particular character's position, in the particular light they're in, with they're particular lighting (ability or equipment), miss chances, etc.
I'll do another reread or two of your document and the core rules and I'll likely start integrating in a stricter interpretation of the lighting rules. I know that I've been lax in that area.
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Jiggy, that was a very nice Darkness summary you did. Thank you.
I don't think I've really been in any games yet where darkness (even just plain dim light) is treated properly. Perhaps one reason is that it adds a tad bit more complication to what might already be a number of things to keep track of in an encounter. That is, trying to account for a particular character's position, in the particular light they're in, with they're particular lighting (ability or equipment), miss chances, etc.
I'll do another reread or two of your document and the core rules and I'll likely start integrating in a stricter interpretation of the lighting rules. I know that I've been lax in that area.
For what it's worth, I've found that in practice, correct application of the various light/darkness rules actually plays out pretty simply/cleanly in almost every situation that comes up in real gameplay.
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I guess the fun part is telling the party that has a character carrying an Ioun Torch...touch luck...it doesn't help defeat Darkness since your 75GP item is not considered to have a permanent 3rd level version of Continual Flame on it. I can already hear the gripes (and, for the record, I would be one of those if I were at a table and not knowing this rule)...
I would assume that for 75GP you ain't getting a permanent 3rd level spell type item.
Scent will make things interesting since players might have animal companions that will know general direction and will have to guess at the right square after a couple of moves.
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It's not that I would do something differently, it's that I read your post as being frustrated that you weren't able to succeed at undoing the daylight. However, re-reading your post, maybe that's not what you were saying.
Nah. I was responding to David's post. Even being able to cast at will doesn't overcome having to touch the object daylight is cast on, if it was cast on an object. I think you mention that in your guide.
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I guess the fun part is telling the party that has a character carrying an Ioun Torch...touch luck...it doesn't help defeat Darkness since your 75GP item is not considered to have a permanent 3rd level version of Continual Flame on it. I can already hear the gripes (and, for the record, I would be one of those if I were at a table and not knowing this rule)...
I would assume that for 75GP you ain't getting a permanent 3rd level spell type item.
Scent will make things interesting since players might have animal companions that will know general direction and will have to guess at the right square after a couple of moves.
The critters won't have to guess. Standing next to something gives you the square when you have scent.
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Yes, but the critters won't start off next to the foe; they have to go find 'em first! Chances are they'll be at least 10' or more away and will find them on their next move. Or, if they have enough move left, do you let them just hone in on the right square?
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.
The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.
So Non action: SQUIRREL!
Move action: SQUIRREL! that way.
Move that way.
Non action SQUIRREL! RIGHT HERE!