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Firstly, the rules:
A stalker gains an ability called hidden strike, which allows him to deal an extra 1d8 points of precision damage on melee attacks (or ranged attacks from within 30 feet) against foes who are unaware of his presence, who consider him an ally, or who are made flat-footed by startling appearance. This extra damage increases by 1d8 at 3rd level and every 2 vigilante levels thereafter. A stalker vigilante can also deal hidden strike damage to a target that he is flanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, but in these cases, the damage dice are reduced to d4s.
I am aware (SEE WHAT I DID THERE) of what it says on page 188 of Ultimate Intrigue. Side note to anyone who typically counts on online resources like d20pfsrd, sometimes it doesn't give you the whole story. While it calls out Perception v Stealth for awareness, I have other questions about it.
Unaware: On one end of the spectrum, sneaking creature can succeed at Stealth well enough that the other creature isn’t even aware that the creature is present. This state allows the sneaking creature to use abilities such as the vigilante’s startling appearance. The Stealth skill description in the Core Rulebook says that perceiving creatures that fail to beat a sneaking character’s Stealth check result are not aware of the sneaking character, but that is different from being totally unaware. This is also true of a creature that has previously been made aware of the creature’s presence or location (see below) but is currently unable to observe the sneaking creature. In those cases, the sneaking creature can’t use abilities such as startling presence.
Aware of Presence: The next state is when the perceiving creature is aware of the sneaking creature’s presence, though not of anything beyond that. This is the state that happens when an invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses Stealth so the perceiving creature doesn’t know where the attacker moved, or when a sniper succeeds at her Stealth check to snipe. A perceiving creature that becomes aware of a hidden creature’s presence will still be aware of its presence at least until the danger of the situation continues, if not longer (though memory-altering magic can change this).
Now the scenario:
On the way to Camp Glass Pond, Campers 1-9 stop at a gas station and talk to Harold the Gas Station attendant about their plans. He warns them about a group of campers that were killed at Camp Glass Pond several years back by a killer wearing an umpire's mask named...uh...Jacob (social talent: Renown). No one has heard from Jacob since then and many believe that Jacob is just a story or dead, but Harold warns them that Jacob is still out there.
Campers 1-9 get to Camp Glass Pond and break out the alcohol to party. They have enough alochol, drugs, and entertainment to last all of them for the entire week, like any hormonal camper who is away from college has, I guess.
The next day, Camper 10 is on her way to show up early in the morning and is hitchhiking to Camp Glass Pond, and is picked up by Joe Farmer, a seemingly-jovial (yet non-descript, social talent: Many Guises) person who talks a bit with Camper 10 but then suddenly stabs Camper 10. Does Joe Farmer (in reality the slayer vigilante in disguise) get the full Hidden Strike damage, or the reduced damage and why (or why not)? Camper 10 was not aware that the vigilante existed, had no reason to think that Joe Farmer was going to attack (complete surprise), and Camper 10 was probably at least Friendly on the Starting Attitude scale since Joe Farmer was helping them out by giving them a ride. Is that enough for "considers him an ally"? It isn't likely that Camper 10 was "unaware of his presence" since they were talking beforehand. I assume that changing from unassuming mundane to cold-blooded killer isn't startling enough for the startling appearance ability.
Campers 1-9 have no idea what happened to Camper 10 and just assume she bailed (she's like that, I guess) and continue their partying. That night, Camper 9 is pretty hammered and decides to go off exploring Camp Glass Pond by himself, and finds an old tool shed. He's drunk and not paying much attention and stumbles about a bit when a man in an umpire's mask appears from out of nowhere and stabs him with a garden tool (startling appearance + vigilante talent: environmental weapon) and gets full Hidden Strike damage (so adds Mighty Ambush to it, just in case) and Camper 9 goes down. Jacob then makes it look like Camper 9 pulled down the garden tools on top of himself in his drunkenness.
Campers 3 & 4 are wondering what happened to Camper 9 and find his body. They are saddened by his death but convinced that it was an accident. They decide to say nothing to the others yet.
On day 3, Camper 3 spills the beans to everyone and Camper 2 asks if it could be Jacob, the Camp Glass Pond killer that the gas station attendant told them about, but no one takes him seriously. They all decide to mourn Camper 9 the way he would have liked to have been mourned, and continue partying. That night, Campers 7 & 8 both end up dead (who cares how at this point), and it is clear that the campers are not alone (social talent: Triumphant Return) and they all believe what Camper 2 has been saying, that it's Jacob doing it. At this point, Campers 1-6 all know about Jacob and all believe that he is back and is killing off their friends. They can't leave because their cars won't start and they...uh...don't have cell service. They also believe that when Camper 10 shows up (they still don't know she's dead) she'll be able to rescue them. Otherwise they'll have to walk back to town which will take more than a day...yeah.
On the next night, they are all huddled in the same cabin. They have decided to remain together for now in order to be safer. They know Jacob is somewhere, but don't know where. They hear a sound outside (social talent: Mockingbird) and decide to investigate. Campers 2, 5, and 6 go out together, and once outside decide to split up, since they know where the sound came from and they want to surround Jacob. Camper 6 is slowly closing in on the spot where the sound came from when Jacob appears behind him and kills him. In this case, Camper 6 was aware that the vigilante was somewhere in the camp. He thought he knew the location (but was wrong because of Mockingbird). Does Jacob receive full or reduced Hidden Strike? Is "believes the vigilante is behind that door when in reality he is behind you" enough awareness to not be able to use startling appearance?
When Camper 5 reaches the point where he thought he heard Jacob, he finds nothing there. He starts looking for his friends when he hears a scream and runs to find Camper 2 dead. Camper 5 then runs back to the cabin to tell his friends. Campers 1, 3, 4, and 5 are now terrified out of their minds.
The next day, Camper 5 declares that he's going to walk back to town and thinks that Campers 1, 3, and 4 should stay behind. Camper 5 is a long distance runner star at their school and thinks that he'll be faster without them. He promises to come back as soon as he can. Needless to say he dies.
That night, Campers 1, 3, and 4 are alone and haven't heard anything back from Camper 5 and believe he's dead. They hear a sound at the door and find that Camper 2 isn't dead after all, he just regained consciousness and Camper 5 didn't double check when he found him. Campers 1, 3, and 4 fill in Camper 2 with what's been going on since he left, and Camper 2 tells them that he found Camper 6's body, and he thinks he found where Jacob's been staying. He gets them to agree to take the fight to Jacob. They pick up some random pieces of equipment around the cabin in an effort to be armed before their confrontation with the umpire-masked killer.
As they leave for Jacob's lair, Camper 4 starts complaining about being ill and not ready to fight. Camper 2 offers to help Camper 4 back into the cabin and find a good place to hide. Campers 1 & 3 are waiting downstairs when Camper 2 helps Camper 4 up to the room and KILLS HIM. Camper 4 definitely believed Camper 2 was an ally so he gets full Hidden Strike damage. He also adds Throat Jab, just in case, so he can't warn anyone else. Camper 2 then comes back downstairs and rejoins Campers 1 & 3.
Final wrap up: Campers 1-3 enter the ramshackle cabin that Camper 2 claims is Jacob's Lair, where they find Camper 10's body. Camper 2 kills Camper 3 (again, full Hidden Strike damage since they still think he's an ally), but Camper 1 sees it. They fight, Camper 1 "kills" Camper 2 (vigilante talent: Another Day), and escapes.
So: TL;DR; version:
1) What qualifies as an ally for hidden strike to count? Went to college with the person and is now on vacation with them, is obvious. Is a stranger but does a favor for them? Require a Diplomacy check? If so, what level of attitude is enough? Would followers of the same faith meeting for the first time be enough? Typically, the question has been one of the player doing an action that would effect "allies" or "enemies" and thus could determine who was who. In this case, however, the power of the character's ability is based on another character's view. Is there any way to pull this off reliably (Diplomacy or Bluff check, using Any Guise to Disguise as a specific person the target knows) or is this entirely GM fiat?
2) What qualifies as "is aware of the vigilante's presence"? Knowledge that the vigilante might be in the general area? Knowledge that the vigilante is "somewhere near by but possibly not really"? Believes the vigilante is near but completely wrong as far as where (possibly not just a failed perception roll, but a really bad roll or looking in the wrong area)? Let's be honest. If it really is as simple as page 188 seems to make it ("The Stealth
skill description in the Core Rulebook says that perceiving creatures that fail to beat a sneaking character’s Stealth check result are not aware of the sneaking character, but that is different from being totally unaware."), any lookout who is watching for Batman is enough to foil his Hidden Strike ability simply because he's actively using perception. If someone declares that they are looking for hidden creatures, is that enough to foil hidden strike, even if there's no real evidence that a hidden creature is around or they are looking under the bed when the vigilante is really in the closet?
BONUS QUESTIONS:
3) If a vigilante is using Many Guises to disguise himself as a harmless person (or Guise of Unlife to pose as a zombie) and then suddenly attacks in an unexpected way (WHERE DID THAT ZOMBIE GET A MACHETE FROM?!?), I assume that's not enough for full Hidden Strike damage, correct?
4) If a vigilante is using Many Guises to hide in a crowd of similar individuals, can they spring from the crowd to deal full hidden strike damage? I think Heroes of the Streets mentions using Stealth to hide in a crowd, but I could be wrong. Would the target knowing that the vigilante was likely in the crowd somewhere but have no idea what the vigilante looks like be enough to foil it?
5) I found this and was wondering if that is still true for the full release version. Can Up Close and Personal be used to trigger Hidden Strike talents? It occurs to me that if it's true you can 1) Move action to use Up Close and Personal and roll Acrobatics vs. target's CMD + 5. If successful, 2) Swift action to attack with Hidden Strike + Mighty Ambush, if target fails their fort save they drop unconscious for 1d4 rounds, which is plenty of time to 3) Standard action, use Throat Slicer (feat from Heroes of the Streets which allows a coup de grace against an unconscious target who is also blissfully unaware of the vigilante so the hidden strike damage gets added on.
I think that's about it.
1) I would say that the GM has the most to say about who considers you their ally, but taking their friend's appearance is a creative way to achieve that.
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2) What qualifies as "is aware of the vigilante's presence"? Knowledge that the vigilante might be in the general area? Knowledge that the vigilante is "somewhere near by but possibly not really"? Believes the vigilante is near but completely wrong as far as where (possibly not just a failed perception roll, but a really bad roll or looking in the wrong area)? Let's be honest. If it really is as simple as page 188 seems to make it ("The Stealth skill description in the Core Rulebook says that perceiving creatures that fail to beat a sneaking character’s Stealth check result are not aware of the sneaking character, but that is different from being totally unaware."), any lookout who is watching for Batman is enough to foil his Hidden Strike ability simply because he's actively using perception. If someone declares that they are looking for hidden creatures, is that enough to foil hidden strike, even if there's no real evidence that a hidden creature is around or they are looking under the bed when the vigilante is really in the closet?
If someone told you that batman was in your house, you wouldn't be aware of his presence. Not until you've actually seen/heard him would you be aware of his presence.*
The paragraph about stealth and how the creature is still aware of the vigilante's presence is to stop people from getting the full hidden strike with successive stealth checks.
Basically, no matter how many times you stealth after you have been discovered, you won't get your Startling Presence or Hidden Strike against a creature that became aware of you once. (At the very least, not until combat is over.)
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3) If a vigilante is using Many Guises to disguise himself as a harmless person (or Guise of Unlife to pose as a zombie) and then suddenly attacks in an unexpected way (WHERE DID THAT ZOMBIE GET A MACHETE FROM?!?), I assume that's not enough for full Hidden Strike damage, correct?
Would the disguise make the enemy "unaware of his presence", make them "consider him an ally", or become "flat-footed by startling appearance."?
If not, then it will not be enough for full hidden strike.
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4) If a vigilante is using Many Guises to hide in a crowd of similar individuals, can they spring from the crowd to deal full hidden strike damage? I think Heroes of the Streets mentions using Stealth to hide in a crowd, but I could be wrong. Would the target knowing that the vigilante was likely in the crowd somewhere but have no idea what the vigilante looks like be enough to foil it?
Yes. You can use Stealth in a crowd of people. You're treated as having cover.
If Enemy A has seen the vigilante escape into the crowd (and the vigilante succesfully used stealth), then the Vigilante would still not get his full hidden strike against Enemy A.If Enemy A called on henchman B after the vigilante succesfully used Stealth, then the vigilante would be able to use his full hidden strike against henchman B since this creature never saw/heard the Vigilante.*
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5) Yes it is still legal.
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*The parts marked with an asterix is my own view of how the aware/unaware mechanic work. It is not backed up by any rules, but it isn't contradicted by any rule as for as I know. If it's wrong, then getting Hidden Strike will get a lot harder.
Is there any way to pull this off reliably (Diplomacy or Bluff check, using Any Guise to Disguise as a specific person the target knows) or is this entirely GM fiat?
Its supposed to be a bluff or disguise check.
I think the best way to do sudden strike is that it's sneak attack, but increases to d8's when you attack by surprise but only d4's when you flank or use invisibility.
2) What qualifies as "is aware of the vigilante's presence"?
You see Batman pop out of the shadows. Hits someone. Pops back into the shadows. You know batman is in the warehouse even if you don't know WHERE. You're aware of his presence now (not that it does you any good)
If someone declares that they are looking for hidden creatures, is that enough to foil hidden strike, even if there's no real evidence that a hidden creature is around or they are looking under the bed when the vigilante is really in the closet?
No
3) If a vigilante is using Many Guises to disguise himself as a harmless person (or Guise of Unlife to pose as a zombie) and then suddenly attacks in an unexpected way (WHERE DID THAT ZOMBIE GET A MACHETE FROM?!?), I assume that's not enough for full Hidden Strike damage, correct?
Bruce wayne disguising himself as a little old lady and whacking Mack the Knife as he walks by him on the street is one of the things sudden strike is for.
Most people are going to be looking at a zombie and treating it as dangerous, so just being a different enemy wouldn't work. (unless you have a necromancer who routinely uses them for furniture or something)
4) If a vigilante is using Many Guises to hide in a crowd of similar individuals, can they spring from the crowd to deal full hidden strike damage?
Eyup. The first time. After that they're down to d4s.
Would the target knowing that the vigilante was likely in the crowd somewhere but have no idea what the vigilante looks like be enough to
foil it?
Probably not for the first hit.
Is there any way to pull this off reliably (Diplomacy or Bluff check, using Any Guise to Disguise as a specific person the target knows) or is this entirely GM fiat?Its supposed to be a bluff or disguise check.
I think the best way to do sudden strike is that it's sneak attack, but increases to d8's when you attack by surprise but only d4's when you flank or use invisibility.
<SNIP>
Bruce wayne disguising himself as a little old lady and whacking Mack the Knife as he walks by him on the street is one of the things sudden strike is for.
Part of the problem I keep having is that I feel it should be done this way as well, but it isn't.
I keep thinking that it should be full Hidden Strike damage if you can attack a flat-footed enemy during a surprise round, but the mere fact that the target knows that there is a frail-looking old lady walking by is enough to keep that lady (who is really Batman in disguise!) from getting full damage.
Funny thought... if that old lady then uses stealth to hide, THEN attacks, do they get it or not? On one hand, they were aware of an old lady in the area who is now missing... on the other hand they had no idea that the old lady was the vigilante so why would they be expecting sweet Grandma Muffins from stabbing them in the back?
2) What qualifies as "is aware of the vigilante's presence"?You see Batman pop out of the shadows. Hits someone. Pops back into the shadows. You know batman is in the warehouse even if you don't know WHERE. You're aware of his presence now (not that it does you any good)
If someone declares that they are looking for hidden creatures, is that enough to foil hidden strike, even if there's no real evidence that a hidden creature is around or they are looking under the bed when the vigilante is really in the closet?No
Okay, but why not? It says that failing a perception check to notice a stealthed character is not the same thing as being unaware.
"I'm a bad guy in Gotham doing crime. Batman is probably going to show up at some point. This is the only place he can come from [note: he obviously hasn't played any of the Arkham games to look up] so I'm looking down this hallway."
This seems to satisfy the condition that the mook failed his perception to notice a stealthed vigilante, but would be considered "not unaware" by that definition, even tho he had no indication prior to Batman dropping down behind him and knocking him senseless that Batman was anywhere nearby.
I realize that it doesn't feel right thematically to not allow the vigilante in a circumstance like this to get the drop on his target, but I'm having trouble RAWwise to back that up.
3) If a vigilante is using Many Guises to disguise himself as a harmless person (or Guise of Unlife to pose as a zombie) and then suddenly attacks in an unexpected way (WHERE DID THAT ZOMBIE GET A MACHETE FROM?!?), I assume that's not enough for full Hidden Strike damage, correct?Most people are going to be looking at a zombie and treating it as dangerous, so just being a different enemy wouldn't work. (unless you have a necromancer who routinely uses them for furniture or something)
I don't think that I've ever played in a game where a (non-infectious) zombie was ever treated as anything to be feared or dangerous, but I can see your point. My thought was just that if a zombie suddenly quick drew a machete from a hidden location on their body, that would be startling.
Okay, but why not? It says that failing a perception check to notice a stealthed character is not the same thing as being unaware.
Because there's a difference between you don't know he's there and you don't know he's where? .
1) I would say that the GM has the most to say about who considers you their ally, but taking their friend's appearance is a creative way to achieve that.
To be fair, this was all theorycraft. The vigilantes I make to play have all been avengers. That said, in my first attempt at creating a stalker, I started trying to figure out how to reliably use it. The less where I have to make the GM have to do judgement calls and (possibly) slow the game down because of it, the better. If I could say "I roll Bluff vs. Sense Motive to make him think I'm an ally" he could say "okay, roll" and we keep going, that would make everyone else at the table happy. If I have to come up with a string of stuff to set up where I'll eventually clock the guy over the head with a tankard, just so I can knock him unconscious with Mighty Ambush, the other players might get antsy.
While I do enjoy roleplaying out stuff like that (I remember once in a game where we were given the mission to drive out a much more powerful group from a town, and I laid out a full strategy with disguises and frame jobs and the like... one player got so bored he ended up fireballing the enemy group and was summarily killed for doing it), I would also prefer having an option that I can suggest that will keep the game going and be fun for all.
----------2) What qualifies as "is aware of the vigilante's presence"? Knowledge that the vigilante might be in the general area? Knowledge that the vigilante is "somewhere near by but possibly not really"? Believes the vigilante is near but completely wrong as far as where (possibly not just a failed perception roll, but a really bad roll or looking in the wrong area)? Let's be honest. If it really is as simple as page 188 seems to make it ("The Stealth skill description in the Core Rulebook says that perceiving creatures that fail to beat a sneaking character’s Stealth check result are not aware of the sneaking character, but that is different from being totally unaware."), any lookout who is watching for Batman is enough to foil his Hidden Strike ability simply because he's actively using perception. If someone declares that they are looking for hidden creatures, is that enough to foil hidden strike, even if there's no real evidence that a hidden creature is around or they are looking under the bed when the vigilante is really in the closet?If someone told you that batman was in your house, you wouldn't be aware of his presence. Not until you've actually seen/heard him would you be aware of his presence.*
The paragraph about stealth and how the creature is still aware of the vigilante's presence is to stop people from getting the full hidden strike with successive stealth checks.
Basically, no matter how many times you stealth after you have been discovered, you won't get your Startling Presence or Hidden Strike against a creature that became aware of you once. (At the very least, not until combat is over.)
<snip>
If Enemy A has seen the vigilante escape into the crowd (and the vigilante succesfully used stealth), then the Vigilante would still not get his full hidden strike against Enemy A.
If Enemy A called on henchman B after the vigilante succesfully used Stealth, then the vigilante would be able to use his full hidden strike against henchman B since this creature never saw/heard the Vigilante.*
I understand that was the intent, but that doesn't quite mesh with what was said. You don't have to have seen the vigilante to be "not unaware", or else you would need to have at least once successfully made a Perception check (or the vigilante has come out from stealth and made the check moot). At least, that's what it appears to me.
Enemy A tells Henchman B that Virgil the Vigilante ran into the crowd. Henchman B does a perception check looking for Virgil, not knowing that Virgil now looks like Frank the Farmer. His perception check fails against Virgil's stealth check, but again he is "not aware", not "unaware".
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5) Yes it is still legal.
This might be the only way to really pull off Hidden Strike reliably, and part of me screams that this is broken and will be nerfed at some point so I shouldn't count on it.
Oh well, thanks for your input! :)