They're all about being spontaneous. So why do they suck at applying metemagic on the fly? Instead of using the normal rules for spontaneous metamagic, make it so that it is a move action to apply metamagic (this allows them a swift action). As they level the action it takes to apply metamagic becomes a swift action, then finally a free action.
The second step is to allow sorcerers to use a different spell slot for metamagic. ex. Silent and Still use 1st level spell slots, Quicken uses a 4th level spell slot. This allows them to use metamagic before wizards by using the spell slots which they have a lot of.
It's a work in progress. I haven't figured out the action economy of multiple metamagic, nor have I assessed all the ramifications of these houserules. Anyway, opinions will be much appreciated.
Just getting rid of the "spontaneous metamagic requires longer casting time" is a good start.
Re: spell slots - Are you suggesting burning an extra spell slot to use a Metamagic rather than increasing the spell level? So for example a Quickened Fireball would burn a 3rd level slot for the spell itself and a 4th level slot for the metamagic? Interesting, though not sure how well that would work out.
Sorcerers are already too powerful as it is, especially with the Pages that give them additional spells known, they don't really need more versatility IMO...
Just getting rid of the "spontaneous metamagic requires longer casting time" is a good start.
Re: spell slots - Are you suggesting burning an extra spell slot to use a Metamagic rather than increasing the spell level? So for example a Quickened Fireball would burn a 3rd level slot for the spell itself and a 4th level slot for the metamagic? Interesting, though not sure how well that would work out.
Yes. It would make sorcerers much more potent when using metamagic by spending their slots. I'm not sure how balanced it is however. It is because of that potency I decided to keep the longer casting time as a limiter until higher levels.
Why Not just do this...
So every even level after 4... Treat it like Scrolls
I want to Learn a Spell with with a Meta Magic Feat attached so it just sits in the higher level slot...
It wont eat more slots and Sorcs are basically Scroll Batteries anyway
Also Rods are a great Supplement to a Sorc
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.
Sorcerers are already too powerful as it is, especially with the Pages that give them additional spells known, they don't really need more versatility IMO...
Care to elaborate how sorcerers are too powerful? In my own experience, sorcerers fall behind a well built/played specialist wizard. They have fewer spells with no real way to gain more (Unless they are human using favored class which perturbs me). In actual combat, the sorcerer isn't slinging more spells than the wizard. In 3 rounds, the sorcerer still won't be able to cast more spells than the wizard. Even after the wizard runs out, they can still cast from scrolls or wands.
I don't want the sorcerer to be a cheap and spontaneous wizard. I don't want it to have a more diverse selection of spells, and I don't want it to rely on scrolls, wands, or familiars. I want it to be magic.
Sorcerers are already too powerful as it is, especially with the Pages that give them additional spells known, they don't really need more versatility IMO...Care to elaborate how sorcerers are too powerful?
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Reecy means that, at 4th level for example, you learn n Intensified Shocking Grasp as a second level spell.
Sorcerers do not "SUCK" at metamagic. The one round casting time is more than balanced by their extreme flexibility. When Wizards want to use feats, they have to dedicate their spells in advance to them. A sorcerer on the other hand gets to choose on the spot.
Suck was probably a little harsh. I don't think that sorcerers are extremely flexible. Their limited spell selection, makes them rather limited in versatility meaning they usually have to figure out what kind of caster they are going to be when they level and choose their spells. They are however spontaneous, so they can use whatever spells or metamagic they happen to know on the fly.
They are often treated as wizards with training wheels because they don't have to figure how often they are going to use each spell each morning. People always seem to forget just how flexible a well prepared wizard can be. It's using the scribe scroll ability that they get a first level to have some extra spells. Having wands also helps. Also people forget that a wizard can leave some slots open and have a 15 minute prep session when he's got a better idea where the adventure is leading. Metamagic rods also help wizards when it comes to having some flexibility.
The difference in flexibility between a wizard and a sorcerer is greatly exaggerated.
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Well you did say opinions would be appreciated...
They don't suck with meta-magic, they are amazing at it. It takes them about 6 seconds to do what takes a wizard 15 minutes to do.
As someone whose played a number of Sorcerers over the years and editions usually with a focus on meta-magic, they get a heck of a lot more use out of a lot of them then any other class in the game other then maybe the Oracle class.
Having to take a full round action is 85% of the time absolutely no penalty whatsoever. Your talking about altering the game so that a particular class can move an extra 20-30 feet in round, you know if they need just maybe.
What spell/meta-magic combination is so specialized yet necessary that you absolutely need the meta-magic version but can't take that action?
A wizard never runs out of Spells if he is prepared has an Unlimited Spell list... The sorc has a limited Spell List and Can only keep a Copy of all Spells he has on Stand by for backups if he needs them...
The Plus to a Sorc is every level a Wizard casts they cast it one level higher just because the receive the levels later...
A Sorc is More Specialized based on your Spell selection it is very Easy for a Sorc not to have a spell that could help in a situation where a Wizard basically a Swiss Army Knife.
How are they better?
I believe in Combat in favorable Conditions A Sorc has the advantage but you give a Wizard Quick Draw and plenty of parchment they can hold their own longer but maybe not as a dominating presence
Firstly it is only every OTHER level a wizard has access to a higher level spell. Also the Sorcerer with meta-magics can cast more of the spells they NEED at that time. For example a 10th level sorcerer with 20 Charisma has between 3rd and 5th level 7x3rd level, 6x4th level and 5 x 5th level spells - now imagine they have an epic battle against a hoard of enemies - potentially the Sorcerer can cast 7 fireballs @ 3rd level, 6 intensified fireballs @ 4th level and 5 empowered fireballs @ 5th level. A humble 18 fireballs of varying power. Most wizards don't even come close to that firepower - why? because they have fewer spells they can cast AND they must predict in advance what to do with them.
In my experience that is usually a more of a focus on self-preservation and less of their contribution to the cause.
How often would you get into an 18 round battle, with no inclination, and no time to prepare? And if it is something that your GM throws at you a lot, I don't see why a wizard wouldn't be prepared for it. FYI, a specialist wizard who also only has 20 charisma, does still have 5x 3rd level, 5x 4th level, 4x 5th level spells, and if they chose an item for their bond an extra whatever level spell of their choosing spontaneously. Which may not be as many as the sorcerer, but those 15 are enough in most situations.
Of course this is clearly a sorcerer who has no magic items (20 charisma is low for a 10th level character). And they're using fireball (of course it might be a horde of lower level mooks) as fire is the most resisted element, fireball is half damage or none if the mook has evasion on a successful reflex saves (which would only be DC18 with that sorcerer), and stopped by spell resistance.
the arcane bloodline does plenty for metamagic using sorcerers.
I'll start off with the positive: the idea is kinda neat. It would open up metamagic usage at much earlier levels overall, changing the dynamic of spell combat a bit. It would also mean that 1-4 level spell slots would be at a HUGE premium late game, but it's not an unworkable house-rule when you take into consideration pearls of power and such. Overall, good candidate for an experimental house-role. It should be noted that the VAST majority of spells that might be cast in combat and that, therefore, we're worried about the metamagic impact on, are standard actions to cast. This means sorcerers are effectively ALREADY taking their standard and move action to cast them because it's a full-round action. That means they can still do a quickened spell, another normally meta-magiced spell, free actions, and a 5-foot step each round.
Okay, now the criticism: at high levels, your proposed allowance of free-actions to meta-magic is just nuts. It would apply to all meta-magics, including Quicken. Think of it: a sorcerer using all her 4th level slots to toss out around 8 or 9 spells in a single round. Hell on her 4th level slots? Yes. Ridiculously, game-breakingly OP? Most certainly. It's the flipside earlier on when they're meta-magicing as a swift action. See, you're allowed ONE swift action each turn which means that now they can't even quicken anymore. Even if you modify this proposed rule to ONLY affect metamagic feats with a spell slot adjustment of +0 to +3, it still means a blasting sorcerer can apply Intensify, Empower, or Maximize at will (or all three!) to whatever they cast and not be any worse off for it in action economy. All this on top of an additional confusing dichotomy not just between how the games two primary arcane casters manage resources with regards to meta-magic, but between this particular spontaneous casters handles them over all OTHER spontaneous casting classes. Options are good, but options that make game logic shake like an 8.5 earthquake just hit your brain? Not so much.
So, half of your idea is good, other half isn't. I know I sound a bit harsh, but that's the truth of it as per the game mechanics.
Some additional observations re sorcs...
A) Does anyone actually see 18 consecutive round combat in Pathfinder? I'm wracking my brain trying to remember a time in the last 3 or so years any of the 3 groups I'm in have had one fight go HALF that long. I think I have one instance and that's a heavily modified end of Carrion Crown battle with a heavily HP buffed boss and numerous NPCs. In this case, between the NPC wizard and PC sorcerer, the latter was more relevant throughout because ALL of her spell slots were capable of being at least some use to the now revealed boss' capabilities. The wizard had to look at her list and wonder how a Contact Other Plane or Ant Haul now made sense to have prepped. Advantage: sorcerer.
B) A 20 CHA at level 10 isn't low if you started with a 16 (as many 15 point characters do), put both your level up points into it, and have a +2 item. It's about what most APs probably expect, actually. I know lots of people prefer 20 point buy and higher wealth levels but it's still workable this way. Also, both classes get equivalent numbers of bonus spells anyways and sorcerers get more spells per day regardless. Advantage: sorcerer.
C) Sudden fights happen all the time, GMs should do that to keep the PCs on their toes in dangerous areas. GMs should ALSO include a variety of enemies and environments to put the PCs up against, for the same reason. A wizard CANNOT prepare for absolutely every single contingency, at any level range. They have to consider numerous options for offense, for defense, for party buffing, for divination, for travel, the list goes on and is compounded by metamagic choices for each chosen spell that day. An Arcane Bonded item helps a little bit, but not much. Your alternative, taking 15 minutes to prepare new spells (or less if you have the requisite wizard discovery) neglects to take into account two very important factors: 1) that this is of no good against short duration/instantaneous effects or in the middle of a fight, 2) that existing buff spells and effects are rapidly ticking down their duration in the meantime. Compare this to how quick and easy a sorcerer has it and tell me which character you'd rather be managing. Advantage: sorcerers.
D) Sorcerers and wizards both benefit from scrolls, wands, staves, potions, and rods. However, when you consider that the first three effectively give the sorcerer extra spells per day they normally don't know, the benefit is definitely tilted towards the spontaneous class. Yes, the magical items that sorcerers get for recovering expended slots and knowing extra spells are a bit more expensive, but it's worth it when you're a super-capacity spell slot battery. Advantage: sorcerer.
E) Human sorcerers rock. Advantage: sorcerer.
See? There are plenty of ways in which our favorite spontaneous class can be just as handy and flexible as a wizard.
Wizards apply metamagic to spells ahead when they prepare their spells. Therefore they never take time to apply metamagic. Thus Casting a quickened spell already takes a swift action. For quickened spells, and quickened spells onlyat high levels, your proposed allowance of free-actions to meta-magic is just nuts. It would apply to all meta-magics, including Quicken. Think of it: a sorcerer using all her 4th level slots to toss out around 8 or 9 spells in a single round. Hell on her 4th level slots? Yes. Ridiculously, game-breakingly OP? Most certainly. It's the flipside earlier on when they're meta-magicing as a swift action. See, you're allowed ONE swift action each turn which means that now they can't even quicken anymore.
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time.
There's no way to toss out 8 or 9 spells in a single round, well outside of using time stop, but even a wizard could do that.
A) Does anyone actually see 18 consecutive round combat in Pathfinder?
The most I've seen is 12-15 rounds, which is why I was pointing out the absurdity. And the few times I've played in a combat that was more than 3, there was plenty of time to prepare.
B) A 20 CHA at level 10 isn't low if you started with a 16
Usually when I play a caster, I have my casting stat pumped out. Usually ranging from 22-26 at level 10. (Mostly to keep up the DCs)
Sudden fights happen all the time, GMs should do that to keep the PCs on their toes in dangerous areas. GMs should ALSO include a variety of enemies and environments to put the PCs up against, for the same reason.
And I agree with this. However, most of the time with some cursory study (as a high int wizard should do) should give you some insight on what to prepare for. The GMs I've played with make the enemies relevant to the setting, so I shouldn't be expecting fire mephits in the middle of the snow.
D) Sorcerers and wizards both benefit from scrolls, wands, staves, potions, and rods.
Yes, as it is. Both are kind of dependent on gear. And while most of the time it will be a bigger benefit to spontaneous casters (Because the prepared has an easier time expanding their known spells), the idea of reading off scrolls and using equipment better suits the fluff of the wizard not the spontaneous sorcerer who is supposed to be magic. Which is why, I think, the wizard gets scribe scroll for free.
E) Human sorcerers rock
The prevalence of human sorcerers since the birth of that racial favored class bonus really says something about the state of the sorcerers.
See? There are plenty of ways in which our favorite spontaneous class can be just as handy and flexible as a wizard.
I agree with this. They can be just as hand if they choose the right spells when they level. I just find the idea that sorcerers are overpowered because they have their moments when a unexpected situation occurs absurd.
Wizards have long term flexibility (Can have a multitude of options, but are set for the day), while sorcerers have short term flexibility (spells known are set for each level with little adjustment, but they can use any of those known spells).
There's no way to toss out 8 or 9 spells in a single round, well outside of using time stop, but even a wizard could do that.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding how you intend this to work with Quicken spell, then. In any case, I'll move on as there are equally important matters introduced here, namely the discrepancy in how high-impact metamagic on upper end spells works. Normally, you'd have to have a greater quicken/widen/empower metamagic rod to apply anything at all to an 8th or 9th level spell. Now, though, sorcerers can use 1st - 4th level slots to quicken and maximize a meteor swarm or quicken and widen a wail of the banshee, on top of their metamagic rods. And it gets wonkier too, because you can stack metamagic feats until you hit a 9th level slot normally. This means a fireball can have a total of +6 in levels from metamagic, so maximized and widened but no further. Now, though, it can be every single metamagic feat the sorcerer may possess applied to it and never hit a spell level cap. All this wouldn't be a problem if they were at least taking a full-round action for it, but now they don't have to worry about that anymore according to this proposed change. Thus, sorcerers are now not only best at being spontaneous with metamagic but also the undisputed kings through metamagic utility of laying waste to entire swathes of enemies where at least they had some steady competition in a well-prepped wizard before-hand.
My advice: if you're going to do this, allow wizards to use this rule of consuming extra low-level spell slots for metamagic effects. That would at least put them back on equal footing for resource management. Just make sure you like the idea of your GM now being able to have his high-end sorcerer baddies do a quickened, maximized, empowered Energy Drain on a random party member every round.And I agree with this. However, most of the time with some cursory study (as a high int wizard should do) should give you some insight on what to prepare for. The GMs I've played with make the enemies relevant to the setting, so I shouldn't be expecting fire mephits in the middle of the snow.
I agree that they definitely aren't OP. However, it's really NOT that easy to be able to tell what's coming for the day and prep accordingly. If you want to know just what to expect, you'll probably be using spells to aid the party scout(s) or be using divination magic. So, there goes some spell slots right off the bat. A GM is very unlikely to tell you EXACTLY what to expect that day, too. So, when prepping wizard spells, you have to make hard choices based on your best intel/guesses of what's to come.
As an example, let's look at JUST defensive spells in the level 1 through 3 range: Mage Armor, Shield, Prot vs Evil, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Blur, Mirror Image, False Life, Magic Circle, Protection from Energy, and Displacement. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head from the CRB. Do you prep Blur or go full Displacement in case the enemy rogues have that one feat for getting around 20% miss with sneak? Energy Resist or Energy Protection? If you're expecting spike energy damage, it's the latter; smaller bits of damage long term, it's the former. Magic Circle versus Evil or just Protection versus Evil? You have no idea whether or not the party will want to stay close together or spread out. Is Protection from Arrows going to be key because there's lot of archers or should I just go with a more universal but shorter duration Shield? This is all ignoring the presence of communal options, needing these same slots of offensive and utility purposes, rebuffing in case things are dispelled, and assuming that you always overcome SR.Yes, as it is. Both are kind of dependent on gear. And while most of the time it will be a bigger benefit to spontaneous casters (Because the prepared has an easier time expanding their known spells), the idea of reading off scrolls and using equipment better suits the fluff of the wizard not the spontaneous sorcerer who is supposed to be magic. Which is why, I think, the wizard gets scribe scroll for free.
I wouldn't say 'dependent', but I get what you're putting down. Still, why is the feel of a sorcerer not that of someone who can read scrolls, use staves, and generally fall back on magic items from time to time? They live, breath, and think magic on a whim whereas a wizard has to sit still and read for hours to get his brain to be able to do that. If anything, giving the wizard Scribe Scroll is as much addressing this drawback that sorcerers don't have as it is flavor of the prepared caster class. Keeping in mind that each scroll the wizard scribes is 12.5 gp x CL x spell level to boot and it ain't a cheap bit of class flavor either.
Frankly I've always felt that metamagics in general kind of suck.
I've definitely had the odd occurrence where I was like well wouldn't it be nifty if I could cast 2 spells per round or didn't have to talk while casting etc but rarely have I thought oh man adding magic missile this round is totally worth burning up a 5th level spell slot in addition to the feat I wasted to get access to this.
It's small wonder that the metamagic rods are so popular when the feats are so bad in comparison.
Some of them kind of suck, I've never been a huge fan of Bouncing or Widen for example. Some of them, like Persistent, Intensify, or Selective are just awesome. Doubly so if you take into account some classes / feats that allow a metamagic to be applied for less than it's normal spell-slot level modification.