Paladin / Monk? How?

Hey guys! I'm wanting to figure out the best way to make a Paladin Monk. Not specifically of Irori (I know that prestige exists) or Enlightened Paladin archetype, but like various feats and things and other options. I was just curious on others thoughts.

Have you heard about scaled fist monk or tortured crusader paladin?
Scaled Fist uses cha instead of wis for everything so the synergy is obvious. The dragon feats are also nice for a cha based monk with a dip in paladin for saves.

Tortured crusader is whack but I'm sure someone can do something with it. It changes cha to wis but loses divine grace.

The Scaled Fist monk archetype is a pretty good start.

Well fine, ninja me, whatever. Unrogues are better anyway.

Aye, I know of the Scaled Fist. I rather like it, as I have a Nagaji Monk who is Scaled Fist. I don't know much about the Tortured Crusader archetype though.

There generally is no one "best way" in Pathfinder - it always depends on what you want, on your fellow players, on your GM, and on the campaign.

The first thing you have to decide is what your vision really is. When you say "Paladin Monk", what does that really mean? An unarmed Paladin? A monastic Paladin? A divinely inspired Monk? A Monk in shining armor?

All of these can be done without multiclassing, although that doesn't mean multiclassing can't be useful for them. There's also Variant Multiclassing, although the Monk one is really weak, and Paladin isn't overwhelming, either.

On the mechanical side, you have to decide what class features you really want. Paladin has spellcasting, Smite Evil, Lay on Hands that all require most of your levels to be useful, while unMonk* has the ki pool, style strikes, and some very good ki powers that all require a certain level. Meanwhile, Divine Grace and Flurry of Blows, respectively, can each be grabbed by a one or two level dip.

There are basically two different main multiclass paths here: Monk 1/Paladin X, and Paladin 2/Monk X.
A 50/50 approach leaves you with a bunch of weak abilities, so I don't think it's viable.

You'll definitely want Iroran Paladin (or Virtuous Bravo, w/ Snake Style if unarmed) for the former, and either Scaled Fist or Invested Regent (w/ Iroran Paladin) for the latter.
Windstep Master Is also something to think about, especially if your GM rules that you can use Flying Kick while airwalking. Windstep Master stacks with Invested Regent, but not with Scaled Fist.

Both routes are doable both armed and unarmed, although P2/Mx will want Ascetic Form, while M1/Px has no class-based mechanical reason to go unarmed.

Unless you want Divine Grace really, really badly, you could think out of the box and avoid Paladin entirely. Warpriest (Champion of the Faith) gives that holy warrior feel (plus smiting) along with self healing and fairly good magic. You can always take VMC Monk for your Ki Pool and Evasion needs (and the bonus feats from Warpriest kind of make up for the feat loss). I am a fan of mixing in two levels of Kineticist (Elemental Ascetic) to acquire Flurry and Wisdom to AC.

A few fair points to think on for sure, but I think I definitely want to try Paladin with Monk, an unarmed style. A paladin is more than his armor and weapons. He is a holy warrior meant to uphold the righteous causes he follows and a champion of justice for his chosen god (if he/she follows one). A Monk however is not always about inner peace and bodily perfection. A monk could also be a paladin in a sense by the same reasons as above.

I was thinking an even spread of 5/5 but there are ways to obtain more monk levels than necessary (Monks Robe, Champion of Irori, etc etc). Smite Evil would be pretty important, so I was thinking less levels in Monk than Paladin. At first I was thinking just baseline Paladin/Monk as archetypes would not be as beneficial if you stray from their paths. Enlightened Paladin (or Iroran Paladin), would be a decent substitute and multiclassing from it isn't overly harmful but its Unarmed Strike ability does not stack with Monk Levels from multiclassing (as it does not state so), and would be overwritten by any existing levels in Monk above Paladin.

As for Monk, Scaled Fist is clearly the better one for this idea, as you only have to focus on 1 secondary stat for the idea and could be a follower of Apsu to make it thematic. I personally like this idea a lot.

Then there is the prestige (Champion of Irori), which is just a no.

I was thinking an even spread of 5/5 but there are ways to obtain more monk levels than necessary (Monks Robe, Champion of Irori, etc etc). Smite Evil would be pretty important, so I was thinking less levels in Monk than Paladin.

Looks like you are taking more than 4 levels of monk.

Have you hear the good new of Irori? He provides the feat Ki Channel to his monk/priests! I recommend taking the Hospitaler Archetype for paladin for the actual Channel Energy Pool, and probably the phylactery of positive channeling until you can get at least 3 dice for channel.

Also, Tea of Transference. With some downtime and gold, you can basically treat your Ki Pool, Channel Pool, Lay on Hands, and Smite Evil, etc as the same (only gold-limited) resource.

Danzibe1989 wrote:

I was thinking an even spread of 5/5 but there are ways to obtain more monk levels than necessary (Monks Robe, Champion of Irori, etc etc). Smite Evil would be pretty important, so I was thinking less levels in Monk than Paladin.

Looks like you are taking more than 4 levels of monk.

Looks like you are taking more than 4 levels of paladin.

Have you hear the good new of Irori? He provides the feat Ki Channel to his monk/priests! I recommend taking the Hospitaler Archetype for paladin for the actual Channel Energy Pool, and probably the phylactery of positive channeling until you can get at least 3 dice for channel.

Also, Tea of Transference. With some downtime and gold, you can basically treat your Ki Pool, Channel Pool, Lay on Hands, and Smite Evil, etc as the same (only gold-limited) resource.

for what? healing? I'm a monk, not celibate lol.

Firebug wrote:

Danzibe1989 wrote:

I was thinking an even spread of 5/5 but there are ways to obtain more monk levels than necessary (Monks Robe, Champion of Irori, etc etc). Smite Evil would be pretty important, so I was thinking less levels in Monk than Paladin.

Looks like you are taking more than 4 levels of monk.

Looks like you are taking more than 4 levels of paladin.

Have you hear the good new of Irori? He provides the feat Ki Channel to his monk/priests! I recommend taking the Hospitaler Archetype for paladin for the actual Channel Energy Pool, and probably the phylactery of positive channeling until you can get at least 3 dice for channel.

Also, Tea of Transference. With some downtime and gold, you can basically treat your Ki Pool, Channel Pool, Lay on Hands, and Smite Evil, etc as the same (only gold-limited) resource.

for what? healing? I'm a monk, not celibate lol.

If you can't find a use for unlimited Ki points and the ability to use Smite Evil every encounter of every day to do more damage, that's not my problem.

Let me break it down. Lets assume you take the Hospitaler Archetype so you have a stand alone Channel Energy Pool.
1) Use Channel Energy to heal your party for 2d6.
2) Use Ki Channel to instead gain 2 Ki Points instead of gaining the benefits of healing.
3a) Use 1 (of the 2) Ki points with a Tea of Transference to regain the use of Channel Energy and go back to step 1. Net gain 1 Ki Point, cost 40 gp.
3b) Use one of the other Ki points with Tea to regain Smite Evil. Or Lay On Hands. Or another Channel Energy. Or a spell (if you have 3rd level spells).
(If you did not take the Hospitaler Archetype, you need your Lay on Hands to be 3d6, and you need twice as much tea since a normal paladin can use Channel by burning 2 Lay on Hands)

Lets say you have a 20 Charisma. As a Monk(Scaled Fist) 5/Paladin 5, you have 2 uses of Smite Evil and 7 Ki pool and 7 Lay on Hands for 2d6. With Ki Channel and taking the Hospitaler archetype, you lose 1 of your Smite Evil uses for 8 Channel Energy (1d6). Even without using Tea of Transference or the Phylactery of Positive Channeling, you effectively now have 15 Ki Points per day. With the Phylactery, you effectively have 31 Ki Points per day. Without the Phylactery but with the Tea, you effectively have 16 Smite Evil's a day.

With both, you can continue all day as long as you have gold for Tea of Transference, and presumably stomach space.

sure? if that was going to be the main focus of the character but it isn't.