I think I'll just change it then, especially considering how things are slower than a regular game because its in a PBP format, I don't want to slow things down for the others.
Oh just a thought GM how do you feel about retraining skills based on the Ultimate Campaign rules?
Cool bananas. I'll level in the morning - it's past midnight, and my shiny new braces are giving me hell. >.>
EDIT: For my feat, I'm torn between Lingering Performance, or Skill Focus (Peform [string instruments]). The former has obvious buffing benefits; the latter nets me a +3 to not only the perform skill, but also Bluff and Diplomacy (through versatile performance), which is nothing to be sneezed at! What does the group think?
Oh just a thought GM how do you feel about retraining skills based on the Ultimate Campaign rules?
With a GM hat on - in fact with my RPG hat on - is that I'm OK with retraining as long as the character remains the same. If Veryl took up three elevels of flower-arranging suddenly it would jar with me. Similarly if he stopped being trained in Intimidate it would feel wrong.
Ultimately I trust you to keep true to your character.
Kalig's all leveled up. Her summary statblock reflects having rested/healed for the next day, but obviously some of that would not technically go into effect until the morning. (As of the evening she's at 12 out of 17 hp; she'd eat the rest of her goodberries and rest overnight would heal her up the rest of the way.) I will cast goodberry again in the morning (it's my domain spell so I always have it), but haven't rolled for how many I get.
She gained +1 BAB, +1 to all saves, and 2nd level spells (1 per day + 1 bonus for high Wisdom, plus a Domain spell).
Put skill points (including favored class) into Bluff, Diplomacy (she's been talky a lot lately, and it goes with her urban druid lorekeeper ability; I probably will not boost these much higher though after this, so fear not party faces, Kalig the Blunt and Ugly will not be stepping on your toes), Knowledge local (touring the city), Perception (always staying alert), and Spellcraft (learning lots of magic lore lately).
Horatio, both are very good ideas; my suggestion would be to take Lingering Performance (or Extra Performance) now, as it will give us (you included) a useful boost in combat, which given our die roll luck is needed.
I would take the Skill Focus at another level, when Bluff/Diplomacy DCs get notably higher and you can't get by on your charm (or charm) alone.
Conversely, if you imagine you'll be using Countersong a lot, it might be better to take the Skill Focus now, to have the highest possible Perform bonus.
But again, either are good ideas.
@GM Birch Thanks GM, The only change I'll make is switch Craft(Weapon) into Perception and take the point I put into the latter and put it into stealth. I'll probably get skill focus(Stealth) later down the line to counteract the fact that it isn't a class skill, that way it will be well...usable.
@Horatio I agree with what Kalig said, but if Horatio is going to be more present in the thick of things, you should consider some melee or combat feats to help out maybe not now but later on. Like I said before I've never played a Bard before and really don't know how feat taxing it is to be effective at bardic performance, so I wouldn't know which to recommend.
GM, I don't suppose there'd be any way to mitigate the sting of retraining any skill points made obsolete by Versatile Performance? I want to take full advantage of the class feature, and the last time I brought it up, you said you'd consider it on a case-by-case basis. Which is fair, but it kind of leaves me in the lurch - I don't know whether I need to plan out my skill points, level by level, or whether I can let them develop organically.
Knowing the retraining rules are available is alright, but say I take VP (dance) at level 6, since Horatio's slowly getting over Flynn's death and starting to dance again, but I have five ranks in Acrobatics already. It would cost me 900 gp and take fifteen days to swap out those five ranks. And the cost only increases - say I take VP (Oratory) at level 10; training out 10 ranks in Sense Motive would cost 2500 gp and take twenty-five days. That's nearly a month of game time. Since I highly doubt we're going to have that kind of time, I need to either not put any ranks in sense motive (bad idea for the party face), or be saddled with 10 useless skill points that I can't swap out into, say, Knowledge skills.
See the dilemma? =(
That said, here's what else happens.
- +6 hp.
- +1 BAB, CMB & CMD.
- +1 to Fortitude saves.
- +2 rounds of performance per day.
- New cantrip - Daze.
- New masterpiece - Triple Time new 1st-level spell - Chord of Shards. (Not sure which to go with - one's a good party buff, one's a nice AoE spell for someone otherwise lacking in offensive capability.)
- New feat - Extra Performance. (+6 rounds of performance per day.)
- +10 skill points - waiting to assign them until I have an answer on versatile performance. Linguistics and Perform (string instruments) are a given, though.
Leveled. Except feats. Trying to decide between cleave and imp sunder. Any opinions anyone?
The rest is as follows: Currently 17 or 28 hps (includes fav class)
+1 Will
Ranks in Acrobatics, Handle Animal, K Nature, Perception, Stealth, Survival, Swim
Gained endurance and favored terrain (underground)
@Breaca It really depends on where you plan to take each feat and how your planning to build Breaca as far as feats go. Improved Sunder is great with two-handed weapons, especially later in the game when we can get you an adamantine weapon which will ignore all hardness but of course Sundering will only be useful when we fight foes with equipment. Now Cleave is obviously great when we've got groups of monsters surrounding you and since you'll get Cleave, you probably will want to get Great Cleave, while Improved Sunder is good on its on without really needing to dip into Greater Sunder.
Another question are these two feats essential to the build your going for or just a little something extra you've got feat space for?
As I almost never play martially-inclined classes (much like how Veryl never pays bards), I have nothing to contribute. Sorry Breaca. =(
Hey I pay them when I like their performance!
HA. Thanks for picking up on that typo. :P
Horatio, I hear you on the frustration with versatile performance. People who laud its "flexibility" in the theorycraft discussions never realize how frustrating it is to juggle skill points when you're trying to build a vanilla bard from level 1. What it is nice for is what you point out--effectively getting to boost three skills for the price of one with things like skill focus.
Breaca, my 2 cents would be Cleave, but that's honestly because I've never really seen sunder attempts get used very often. In the turn it takes to damage someone's weapon or armor, you could just be hacking them to pieces... and you're also damaging potential loot to be taken by the party. If you want to get someone's gear away from them, Disarm is more effective (Kalig will probably grab Imp Disarm at some point since she likes to use her flail). All that said, if you've got a great plan for how sundering is part of her build and it's part of a set of tactics for your fighting style, go for it --- I'm no optimizer and just because I've seldom seen it done doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
Cleave is useful in groups of weak monsters, and while I can't say for sure we'll see lots of groups of monsters, I would at think there's a good chance we're going to see lots of goblins and such to carve through.
My second 2 cents would be is if you are primarily going for a 2-hander fighting style and you're looking for something that branches off Power Attack, I would suggest Furious Focus from the Advanced Players Guide, which lets you ignore the Power Attack penalty on your first attack when wielding a weapon two-handed (including regular one handed weapons you are wielding with two hands).
Yeah, it's frustrating. I'd like the character to develop organically - sometimes I like to plan builds (as with Jens Varmodsson, my cavalier in WotR), but most of the time, I want the character to grow with their experiences. Particularly with Horatio, in all three games I play him in. I have no concrete plans for him - he's more of a reactive character than anything else. Which is why having to plan out my skill points or be stuck with useless ranks is frustrating. =[
And it's also why I despise theorycrafting. It has a time and place, but damned if it almost never translates well to an actual game.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone! This is actually my first melee focused (semifocused at least) character in pathfinder, so ideas are always welcome.
Yes, it has always kinda annoyed me in d20 games how there usually are very, very few options for non casters that can even compete tactically with simply swinging and taking hps away. Why invest multiple feats just to try (and fail) to take away / break a sword, when you could simply kill the enemy and be done with it? It doesn't leave a lot of room for strategy / tactics other than choosing who you're going to swing at.
And for that matter, if 10 is 'average' intelligence, why do I have to be a moderately genius person to realize that taking the bad guys sword away from him might be helpful? - Yes, I'm looking at you combat expertise - I guess the int prereq is to model intelligence to 'outsmart' him as you're doing it? Personally, I think I'd prefer some sort of opposed roll.
ANYWAY, neither here nor there, so mini rant over. :)
I actually like your Furious Focus idea a lot Kalig. I see Breaca's combat style being very much the "slightly reckless & crazy (but not insanely so), pent up little ball of barbarian female fury suddenly unleashed" idea. Eliminating some of the penalty of power attack seems like a good idea, especially at these lower levels where that penalty can hurt. I somehow overlooked that feat earlier.
Like you said, cleave seems good for mopping up goblins, but at some point we're not likely to be fighting them anymore and so cleave might lose its usefulness later on, while sunder has all the drawbacks you mentioned.
Short version: Furious Focus it is! I might consider sunder again later on down the road, but it'll be much later I think.
Furious Focus seems like a good fit for Breaca. She doesn't seem like the frothing-mouthed rager I usually associate with power attack, and I think the feat suits her well. =)
I still don't know whether to take the triple time performance, or the chord of shards spell... >.>
EDIT: Also, new language. Thassilonian seems an obvious choice, but maybe Abyssal...?
I don't despise theorycraftING per se, but I get very frustrated with many attitudes of vocal theorycraftERs on the message boards, who tend to post ad infinitum on what they THINK is the best way to build something, ignore posts that point out the flaws in their argument, and insist that experience actually playing the game is completely worthless. Some of them I'm fairly certain have never actually played Pathfinder or any other RPG, if for no other reason they're so socially unpleasant no one would ever want to play with them. I no longer even try to go into the forums anymore because of people like that. It's one thing to say, "This is my opinion based on how x, y, and z fit together, so I would suggest this;" it's quite another to say, "OBVIOUSLY only you can use x, y, and z in THIS way and if you don't you're playing the game wrong," and unfortunately the wrongbadfunners have so overtaken the advice boards there's no point whatsoever in trying to get a word in.
Breaca, some of the issue is oldskool adventure design -- and the newskool reliance, for that matter, on Big Six type good gear (so you don't want to destroy it) --- most fights are fights to the death, effectively, so you are best off getting to your opponents' death as quickly as possible. I do think many APs and newer modules, especially those set in urban games, however, are getting better about changing the stakes of encounters so sometimes just bludgeoning something into submission isn't always the best option. I do agree that combat maneuvers are still too hard to access and excel at--I think they are miles better in Pathfinder than in 3.x but it was a small step up rather than the larger one needed. And yes, Combat Expertise is in itself a nonsensical feat with a nonsensical prerequisite, and it is even more nonsensical as the feat tax required to get to many good combat maneuver feats. There's not a lot I would change about the game, honestly, but removing many of the pre-reqs for combat maneuvers would be one of them. I really doubt that would be game breaking.
Big Six type gear? What is that, exactly? I'm really unfamiliar with a lot of the terms I see being thrown around ^^'
And you're right; I guess the problem isn't so much with theorycrafting as with the attitudes. I could have been clearer about that. My last 'meatspace' game was run by a guy like that... a fan of "Schrodinger's Wizard", who often took advantage of loopholes, and, as a player, the unfamiliarity a GM had with the rules. (When he was a player in our mutual friend's game, his wizard cast charm person on a ghoul. His reasoning was, "because it's human-shaped, it's a humanoid creature", and the first-time GM allowed it, because he didn't know any better.) As a GM, he'd punish us for every tiny mistake in order to prove how much smarter he was than us. His whole attitude of "wizards are the best class and win everything forever the end" annoyed me to no end, and then he had the nerve to make all of his games CRB only, because "everything not in the Core Rulebook is overpowered b~@+@@$@". And yet, the only example he could actually point to as being overpowered was the summoner. (Personally, I love summoners, but think they require a level of trust between GM and player - they're easy to break, and the GM should trust his players not to cheese them out.)
I can accept a lot of reasons to not allow material outside the CRB - hell, I'm allowing stuff in my Kingmaker game on a case-by-case basis. "It doesn't fit in with my setting" is a perfectly good reason, "I'm unfamiliar with it and don't want to slow down the game by constantly referring to the rules" also works, as does "it's logistically impractical for our group" - but simply saying "it's overpowered" while boasting about your god-wizard isn't cool. >:(
I recently stopped playing with that guy because he pulled the rape-as-drama card on the only female PC in a game, and didn't understand why I - the only woman at the table - felt uncomfortable about it...
He also told me I was building my characters wrong because I liked linking their personalities and histories to their class features. Apparently if Horatio wouldn't be equally as compelling as a fighter, rogue, cleric, or wizard, he's a caricature. That didn't sit right with me.
Hoooookay, enough ranting about my last GM...
Big Six type gear? What is that, exactly? I'm really unfamiliar with a lot of the terms I see being thrown around ^^'
"Big Six" refers to the six types of equipment most developers and adventure designers assume PCs will gain/players feel they must have before anything else: 1) A magic weapon 2) magic armor (and shield, for certain character types) 3) cloak of resistance (or something that provides resistance bonuses to saving throws) 4) ring of protection (or something that provides deflection bonuses to AC) 5) Amulet of natural armor (or something that provides a natural or other unusual armor bonus) and 6) Ability boosting item for your character's most important ability scores (e.g., a headband of intelligence for a wizard or a belt of strength for a fighter).
The issue with the Big Six is that creature CRs are determined in part based upon presuming characters of a certain level will possess these items within the limitations of the WBL guidelines. If you end up not equipping your character with such items or such items are not plentiful in a campaign, many combat encounters will be harder than perhaps intended. A good GM of course makes adjustments based on such challenges but it's important to realize some of that math is intrinsically worked into the game (i.e., a creature of a certain CR may have a high AC because it is presumed a PC of that APL will have a weapon with an enhancement bonus to help them hit).
You of course don't HAVE to have these items at all but it's important to be aware of those presumptions encoded into the rules.
((Horrible nightmare description of GM))
Good god. Good job for you for getting away from him. That sounds like every horror story of a GM I've ever heard of rolled into one person.
Based on your description, that guy sounds like every lesson in how not to GM, as well as several lessons in how not to be a human being. I hope you find someone better to play with.
Seriously, I belong to a pacifist religion and my first instinct reading all that was "kick that guy in the balls repeatedly, then turn away and never look back."
I love combat maneuvers, yes they're feat taxing like no other feat line and take a solid investment in not just feats, but class and at times archetypes to be good at them, but I like them; they add options to melee that don't just involve 'stick them with the pointy end till they die', they add flavor to a character and gives you an idea of their personality and how it is reflected in their fighting style. Of course you can do that without them but they certainly help, and I agree that they should really take down the steep feat costs to make maneuvers viable but I doubt we'll see these kinds of changes till Pathfinder 2.0 comes out...and I am guessing that isn't happening anytime soon.
@Horatio Wow...just wow. You know I am willing to forgive things in people, cause I am not perfect myself but this guy...well its best I don't say anymore or I'll end up breaking the forum rules.
Thanks for the rundown on the 'big six', Kalig. That does sound annoying. :/
And yeah... He seemed like a nice enough guy away from the table (though his arrogance never really went away), but behind the GM screen, he turned into a real ass.
I say go with Chord of Shards.
Oh which reminds me, have you seen this before? Harmonic Spell. Seems like a good idea; as Bards have a decent number of spells per day, just under sorcerers if I am not mistaken, but its probably better to get it at a higher level when you have more spells to cast per day.
Merwyn has been updated, gaining some hp and saves, as well as two new spells.
I decided not to grab a feat because I remember grabbing an extra one before just to make her companion viable at the beginning of the game.
GM, I don't suppose there'd be any way to mitigate the sting of retraining any skill points made obsolete by Versatile Performance?
My eyes glazed over at all the rules that followed this question - but then you'd expect that. I revert to my response to Veryl. Keep Horatio true to who Horatio is and I wouldn't expect a huge gold spend to do so.
As long as you don't remove something that we all know about Horatio or add multiple levels of something that makes no sense, I'm cool with it. Keep your gold!
I can see retraining working in a sandbox or homebrew game but less practical for APs.
#justmyopinion
EDIT: Also, new language. Thassilonian seems an obvious choice, but maybe Abyssal...?
What I like about that idea is that it relates to the story. There is a reason you'd pick up that language. I play in a game where we travelled from A to B with some random encounters and another player added Giant as a language when we got there. In my opinion, how on earth did he learn it? He had no book to learn from and nobody else could speak it.
Oh, and redundant skills are a pain but sometimes appropriate. I'd be less inclined to allow someone to swap out a skill that they chose at L1 but realise now they don't use. We all have skills from our younger days that we no longer have use for. C'est la vie. But if someone had a strong enough reason to swap one out...I'd always listen.
For me I always look back on L1 spells and go - why did I choose them?
Horatio, I would take Abyssal, since I can already read Thassilonian and we don't have anyone that can do Abyssal.
Merywn: Well, yeah, but what if we come across any smokin' hot Thassilonian chicks? Uh, I mean, Thassilonian people who we, uh, need to get some answers from. Yeah. :P Nah, I'll take Abyssal this time around. But I do plan on getting Thassilonian at some point, just because I'm taking the Pokemon Trainer approach to languages. Gotta learn 'em all!
Birch: I don't plan on retraining any bard levels, or even multiclassing - I can't imagine him as anything other than a musical knowledge-bot! It would only be skills made obsolete through Versatile Performance, which I'd just be putting into boosting other performance or knowledge skills. It's not like I'd suddenly dump them into, say, Profession (lawyer) or Craft (underwater basket-weaving). Well, unless there was a really good reason to do so... Regarding languages, how much justification would you need for picking one up? A phrasebook? Encountering a handful of creatures that speak it? Or studying it with someone who knows it? I imagine it would be easy to justify learning a language another party member speaks, but for others, I'd just like a point of reference. Don't worry, I understand not allowing someone to pick up a language out of thin air. =)
Veryl: Oh. Oh, I like the look of that feat. I like it a lot. Definitely one to pick up when I have more spell slots. As secondary casters, bards don't get as many spells as full casters... At 3rd level, Horatio gets 4 1st-level spells per day. Not bad, but not great. But yes, that feat? Definitely taking it at some point. :D
Birch: Regarding languages, how much justification would you need for picking one up? A phrasebook? Encountering a handful of creatures that speak it? Or studying it with someone who knows it? I imagine it would be easy to justify learning a language another party member speaks, but for others, I'd just like a point of reference. Don't worry, I understand not allowing someone to pick up a language out of thin air. =)
I'm no fan of setting rules about bending the rules. If you've come across a language, that should be enough of a reason to learn it. A teacher is handy but a book is OK too. You could study the book you have for example.
Sometimes you make the story fit the facts. If you really want to weave baskets, notice some on your way out of the Rusty Dragon, then resolve to find out who made them - as they're really, really....exciting?
@Horatio GAH! I completely forgot about the fact that bards are secondary casters, which means a smaller number of spell slots, sorry my mistakes, but I am glad you like the feat. On the subject of profession(lawyer), Kalig and I might need one the next time we go talk to the sheriff.
What was that? I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of my own smooth-talking, what with this +11 Diplomacy and all :P How about you just let the tall, dark, and charismatic one do the talking, eh? ;-) But yeah, once I have more spells per day, I reckon Harmonic Spell will see use!
No worries, Birch. I'll just make sure I'm not taking Aboleth or Vegepygmy out of nowhere, and we should be fine, then. :P
When I was reading Horatio's post, I thought that he called Shalelu a busty woman. It's what I would've expected anyways. :P
Ha! You seem to have a good grasp on the character :p
I'm going to be on a trip until Monday, so my posting may be erratic.
Have a good trip!
Safe travels!
Have fun and stay safe.
Enjoy yourself and take care.
I have returned! I was going to post yesterday, but I was very sleep-deprived and Merwyn as a character sleeps too much, so it would've been very mismatched. :)
Think we're waiting on Merwyn, yes? Then to combat rounds proper.
At least goblin dogs can't run and ring a bell.
I am sorry if I flew past anyone else's plans but I really felt like Kalig would not let that drop.
Ah, it's a surprise round, I got confused. :)
Now we are waiting on Horatio.
@Kalig: No need to apologize, it was an entertaining scene, also its alright that our characters will not always make strategically sound or sensible decisions, that is what makes them interesting if you ask me.
I've moved the scene on, rather than wait on Horatio, we're in the first round proper now.
Perhaps Horatio was delayed avoiding Merwyn's bolt? With modifiers, she was in minus figures!
Let's go with that. Had a rough few days... Familial strife, spousal strife, chest infection... Not fun.
Also, Kalig, I thought it was pretty in character. And to echo Veryl, we won't always be these perfect, tactically-minded machines!
Let's go with that. Had a rough few days... Familial strife, spousal strife, chest infection... Not fun.
No worries - hope things are better soon.
I blame my stepfather's rod up the backside attitude for the first, my partner losing a good friend for the second, and the disease-ridden little monsters that children tend to be for the third. They're not mine, and I'm not getting paid to work with them, so it hardly seems worth it!
I hope your situation improves Horatio and welcome back.
@Birch loved the comment about Merwyn's crossbow bolt.
I just landed a solid job that gives me near daily 7-3 hours. My posting will be non-existent during those hours, but I wills till be active after that.
Congrats on the new job!
Congratulations on finding a new job.
@Breaca for some reason I completely missed the part where she said we should go north. I'll have the arrogant fool of a swordsman apologize after whatever is behind that door blows up in his face. LOL.
Yes, congratulations! :D
Now you won't need to use your skills as a rogue (filcher).