DM Red Dawg's Giantslayer Campaign (Inactive)

Game Master Avarus

Recruitment Complete:


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The Giantslayer Adventure Path begins! In the human town of Trunau, a beleaguered settlement surrounded by the brutal orcs of the Hold of Belkzen, the heroes must investigate a mysterious death. Before they uncover the truth, however, Trunau comes under attack by an orc army, and the heroes must help defend it—only to discover that the situation is worse than anyone realizes. For even the fearsome orc raid is just a distraction allowing a giant chieftain to recover the relics of an ancient giant hero from a tomb long forgotten beneath the town.

I will be starting this adventure as soon as the books come in somewhere around the end of this month, February 2015. So come in create a character based on these rules and let’s see who makes the cut. If you are interested please submit. Combat maps and chat will be on roll20.

Starting Level: 1st level

Stats: 15 Point Buy. I want to make the PC’s rely on each other to succeed, as well as keep the game as balanced as possible.
Alignment: I am going to be allowing any alignment here; however, expect your actions to have consequences.

HP: Max for 1st level; after that, you can either roll upon leveling up or take the average.

Classes: All classes will be accepted, but there are a few I dislike such as the Gunslinger and Occult classes.

Races: All races will be accepted for consideration but party and game balance remain a key concern. If you choose to play something monstrous, like a goblin, explain why you are tolerated in civilized lands.

Drawbacks: I will be allowing Drawbacks.

Traits: Two, one being a campaign trait. So with a drawback you have potential for three traits. Campaign traits can be in the players guide.
Wealth: Max starting wealth.

Submitting a Character:
Create an alias and include relevant information in its profile. I’m going to be asking that character submissions follow this format, stolen from Jelani. You don’t have to follow that exactly; as long as it’s easy to read and the information is all there.
Be sure to include the following in your profile, preferably at the bottom and in spoilers:

Description - Please provide a description of your character as if someone were seeing them for the first time. If you have a picture reference, please include it.

Personality - Self explanatory I hope, but refers to individual differences in characteristic patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving.

Background - Your character is not a hero of great renown, at least not yet. Feel free to go as in depth as you'd like on this section, but keep in mind that you are level one, and while above the cut of your average soldier or town guard, you haven't done any great wonders yet. If you have knowledge of the campaign, I invite you to have your character be FROM Trunau or the the Holds of Belkzen themselves, and you can incorporate some tidbits of this knowledge in your background. However, I do ask that you do your best not to use out of game knowledge to drive character actions. If I suspect any metagaming to be taking place, I will put an end to it in my own, most likely harsh, means. Also, if you go this route, I expect you to include at least 1 rank in Knowledge (Local) in your character to represent this added insight. In this section, include why and how you came to Trunau.

Your characters will be able to interact prior to game start in the Gameplay Thread, partly as a way to have fun and pass the time, partly to let you display your character’s personalities. Participation in this pre-game banter in no way will impact your eligibility or likelihood of acceptance. It is not a requirement, and the person with the highest post count has equal chance of acceptance to the game as someone who does not take part. The pre-game RP will be taking place wholly within the guildhall, as described in the thread. Feel free to take some liberties with NPC’s of your own design, but do not expect any responses from me in that thread, as it is purely there to provide the applicants with a venue to entertain themselves while the recruitment process is under way.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Recruitment will be open until February 28th, and I will post my decisions by Noon CST on the 1st of March.


does this guy's background fit well enough for you? note I thought of his father as a much more, "from the shadows" protector, so not many would know what he did/does.

EDIT: I know his points won't add up atm.


Rydell,

It is an interesting start that when mixed with traits, feats, and workable attributes could work well.

One key component to final submission is to break up the Text wall into a more readable format. Given the long time frame to complete you will have a lot of competition for entry.


I'm thinking a CG Human Stormborn Sorcerer. His struck by lightning count is currently only at 4.


dotting, I like your idea of opening a game play thread to let folks try their characters out a little. So a twenty day application, all races, all classes, all alignments; let me think a little on this one.


any other suggestions on the back ground?


So many wonderful things I could run with the open options given. This may take a second to narrow down.


Will come up with something here. A half-orc Trunau Native. Probably a war-priest of Gorum.

Sczarni

If possible, I had a concept for this campaign, a Realm of the Mammoth Lords native, an Orc Mad Dog Barbarian with a Storm Roc (just a normal roc, storm one being the native one around Wyvernsting mountains), who is there as a scout of sorts for Bearpelt Following.

Valax Soars-on-Land Character Sheet:

Valax Soars-on-Land
Experience:
Male Orc Mad Dog Barbarian 1
TN Medium Humanoid(Orc)
Initiative +2
Senses: Perception +6
-------
AC:16(18); 12 touch, 14(16)FF (+2Dex, +4 Armor, +2 Shield)
HP:14(1d12+1+1)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +1
-------
Speed 40ft (30 in armor)
Melee +5 Greataxe(1d12+6, x3) or +4(1d12+9, x3)
Ranged +3 Javelin(1d6+4, x3)
-------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6
BAB +1, CMB +5, CMD 18
Feats, Power Attack (Orc Weapon Expertise, Defender, if allowed for Greataxes/Falchions)
Skills; 3/level
Survival +5 (1 rank, 3 class, 1 Wis)
Handle Animal +2 (1 rank, 3 class, -2 Cha)
Acrobatics +7 (1 rank, 3 class, 2 Dex, 1 trait)
-------
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Animal Companion, Sky-Death
Racial Traits Medium, Ferocity, Darkvision, Light Sensitivity(May trade for Daywalker)

Traits
Vexing Defender You’re trained in fighting opponents that are larger than you, and you are skilled at keeping them on their toes, pestering them from all directions. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Acrobatics checks, and Acrobatics becomes a class skill for you. In addition, you gain a +4 trait bonus on Acrobatics checks to move through an enemy’s space without provoking an attack of opportunity, provided that enemy is larger than you.

Veteran of Battle(Gorum) +1 bonus on Initiative, and if you are able to act during a surprise round, you may a draw a weapon as a free action during that round.

Highlander (Mountains) +1 bonus on Stealth, and Stealth becomes a class skill for you. This bonus increases to +2 in hilly or rocky areas.

Drawback: Unlearned(Knowledge(Nature)) Choose one Knowledge skill. You cannot attempt untrained Knowledge checks with any other Knowledge skills, even if the check's DC is 10 or lower. If you have access to a library that covers a specific Knowledge skill, you may attempt an untrained Knowledge check with a –2 penalty.
Items:
Battleaxe 20gp
10 Javelins 10gp
Hide Armor 15gp
Heavy Wooden Shield 7gp
Tribesman's outfit
Backpack 1gp
Roc Food(5 days) 5gp
Leather Barding for Roc. 20gp
Wealth 27GP
Age 21, Height 6'6' Weight 220lbs
=================================

I will write backstory and personality, in general he is a child of orcs that left for the Lands of the Mammoth Lords in order to search for true strength, rather than natural brutality. He still shows some orcish traits, however, and will mostly be surprised by the reaction of the natives of Trunau, since in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, strength is respected more than anything.


Initial thoughts have brought forth the surrounding inhabitants. I like all the different ideas so far. Look forward to them being fleshed out a bit.


morgrym here is currently stated and waiting for selection in a difrent thread so pending that selection i may edit him for here. stonelord paladin that has been raised himself to want to be a hero, leanred that he is a stonelord and and has powers gifted from the rocks themselves. backstory will take some editing in the end there a bit but mostly should be good.

this is mostly a dot really


Appearance:

Valax is a tall, hairy, but not as bulky as a normal orc, green in colour, with two symmetric tusks, dressed in different leathers and wearing different pouches with a headdress made of roc feathers.

His armor is made of furry bearhide, covering him entirely and trailing a bit behind his back, while paying homage to his following. His battleaxe looks quite worn, showing traits like a weapon made in the Foundry years ago, and the handle, apparently replaced several times over, is made of aurochs horns. He wears a lot of trophies, mostly of small animals, except for a dagger made out of sabrecat's tooth, which is usually hanged around his neck.

Next to him is his loyal bird, Sky-Death, a terrifying sky beast, clad in makeshift rabbit skins on top of dark blue feathers. People notice the deep imprints of raptor claws on Valax's furs.

On his face you don't see the typical orc expression, meant to intimidate and terrify, rather than a mixture between interest, confusion, and observation. His demeanour is quite similar to those familiar to the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, expressions, movements and accent-wise.

Background:

Valax remembers little of his childhood in Wyvernsting, except for the Wyverns and the large beasts, brought and tamed by his father and presented to the chieftain by the clan. He remembers more about the journey through the mountains, the giant bears, and the cold. He remembers the men rising from the snow, killing his father's pet brown bear, and the large human putting the giant beast on his shoulders and carrying it the way his father carried him, with no issue. His family ventured after them, and joined the tribe after his father beat a large, bearded man in a fistfight in front of the tribe as a challenge.

Valax later joined the hunters of the tribe, and his skills in tracking and experience with animals and the Hold of Belkzen, let him to be sent away to report the things happening in there. He was sent to Trunau as the first step, in order to begin his journey around, complete with letter from the following's shaman to ensure that he isn't executed or lynched for him being an orc.

Personality:

Valax respects strength in others, but is wary of people showing brutality in openness. He is also cautious of dwarves, and will most often try and explain about him not being from around here, outrun them if they attack, or defend himself. He will often refuse to attack dwarves unless someone smarter than him tells him to, because he doesn't wish to antagonize dwarves further.

He will usually refer to people without high physical prowess as shaman, regardless of whether they are arcane or divine casters (a difference he doesn't know exists). He is confused by smaller races, due to him not believing that they can survive and be overprotective of them, if he likes them. Due to the following's shaman being extremely well at hammering ideas in people's heads, in social situations he will watch carefully before doing anything, and most likely do something tribal if forced to improvise.


Rydell Derrick Ellindorr wrote:
any other suggestions on the back ground?

I see the character is a bit more fleshed out and background is well tied to the area, Tranau; but, attributes are clearly above 15 pt build.


Sky-Death, Animal Companion:

TN Medium Beast, Bodyguard Archetype(roc)
Initiative +4
Senses: Perception +6
-------
AC:21; 14 touch; 17 FF
HP:10(2d8-2+3)
Fort +2; Ref +7; Will +1;
-------
Speed 20ft, fly 80ft
Melee +1 2 talons(1d4+1),bite (1d6+1)
-------
Str 12, Dex 19, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11
BAB +0; CMB +1; CMD 17
Feats, Toughness
Skills; Perception +6; Fly+7;
-------
SQ Low-light vision
Wearing Leather armor.

Sky-Death is a storm roc hatchling, found by Valax on the journey through the mountains in an abandoned cave-nest, apparently raided by giants for the other eggs and the mother. After a lot of nasty bites and claws, the unruly beast proved himself listening to his father figure after learning they usually mean some tasty orc or boar bits It makes sense for a pragmatic person, and orc is the other, other, other white meat. He is usually quite quiet for a bird, since the reason birds cry is to draw their mother's attention for food, and Valax feeds him often.

If poked around, he'll usually peck the offending party, but not in an injuring way, however, like his master, he's somewhat of a wild beast, so caution is adviced, and, usually, the second thing offered by Valax after a greeting and a sip of fermented mammoth milk. Likes treats.

How Valax looks, usually dressed in lot more leathers, since it's quite cold, I suppose.


Dundin is built for 20 pts, but can be easily trimmed back to 15, probably by moving his wisdom from 16 to 12.


Was there a game time for this session or have I skipped it?


Stats: 15 Point Buy. I want to make the PC’s rely on each other to succeed, as well as keep the game as balanced as possible.

Does this mean, you will have a party of 6 and make sure that as many roles as possible are covered, so that almost every gap is covered? I hopes this means you are looking for a well balanced party.

also, how do you feel about races taken from the race builder example lashunta now it says male lashuntas look odd, but any chance you can allow male lashuntas to look like an elf but with antlers? Okay they reformatted the text, but it use to say they look a lot like elves, but there is no picture for them.


Arzam of the Wild is presented for you review. Back story is included in his profile.


DoubleGold wrote:

Stats: 15 Point Buy. I want to make the PC’s rely on each other to succeed, as well as keep the game as balanced as possible.

Does this mean, you will have a party of 6 and make sure that as many roles as possible are covered, so that almost every gap is covered? I hopes this means you are looking for a well balanced party.

also, how do you feel about races taken from the race builder example lashunta now it says male lashuntas look odd, but any chance you can allow male lashuntas to look like an elf but with antlers? Okay they reformatted the text, but it use to say they look a lot like elves, but there is no picture for them.

This means I am looking for a well balanced party of 6 members and a few extras that covers all the possibilities. So for example as a classic possibility:

Cleric, Magic User, Thief, Fighter, Bard, Ranger.

The extra would play minor roles or take over for a character that does not provide regular posts.

As for accepting the race builder types; not likely!


Ghostchanter wrote:
Was there a game time for this session or have I skipped it?

The material has not been put out by Paizo at this time but will be available at the end of the month. Characters will be accepted until then and I will select 6 for the adventure 1 Mar 2015.


Another question about races.

Races: All races will be accepted for consideration but party and game balance remain a key concern. If you choose to play something monstrous, like a goblin, explain why you are tolerated in civilized lands.

How do you treat races that are different but not monstrous or evil? Grippli, Vanara, Ratfolk. Of course I would also have to write why I'm in the area too, but every DM has a different take on different races but not evil.


DoubleGold wrote:

Another question about races.

Races: All races will be accepted for consideration but party and game balance remain a key concern. If you choose to play something monstrous, like a goblin, explain why you are tolerated in civilized lands.

How do you treat races that are different but not monstrous or evil? Grippli, Vanara, Ratfolk. Of course I would also have to write why I'm in the area too, but every DM has a different take on different races but not evil.

The key to my selection for the party makeup is cohesion/balance. If there are a lot of submissions that are monstrous it is more likely they could become a party of monstrous creatures; however, if a majority of the submissions are Aasimar then I go that route.

I would assume there will be lots of submissions of all types and only time will tell.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Would you allow someone to take an archetype that is normally associated with a different race. For example someone who is not a Kobold taking one of their trap based archetypes.


I am interested... concept coming.


Drex Bloodmonger would like to volunteer his services to this group.

Drex Bloodmonger
Male dwarf barbarian (drunken rager) 1 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Alchemy Manual)
CN Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 14, touch 11, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 16 (1d12+4)
Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +0; +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee dwarven longaxe +5 (1d12+4/×3) or
. . dwarven waraxe +4 (1d10+3/×3)
Special Attacks hatred, rage (7 rounds/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 15 (19 vs. bull rush, 19 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Focus (dwarven longaxe)
Traits giantslayer scion, ruthless
Skills Acrobatics -2 (-6 to jump), Appraise +0 (+2 to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones), Intimidate +2, Perception +4 (+6 to notice unusual stonework), Survival +4, Swim +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Appraise to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones, +2 Perception to notice unusual stonework
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ drunken rage
Other Gear studded leather, dwarven longaxe, dwarven waraxe, backpack, belt pouch, blanket, flint and steel, hemp rope (50 ft.), pot, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 36 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Drunken Rage (Ex) Spend drunken rage point to increase duration of rage or movement by 20'.
Giantslayer Scion No penalty to Intimdate vs. giants and +1 trait bonus to DC of fear-based effects vs. giants.
Greed +2 to Appraise to determine price of nonmagic goods with precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Rage (7 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Ruthless You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls to confirm critical hits.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs. unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
--------------------
Drex is what some people would call a barbarian, but among his own people, he is a member of an elite class of warrior; the battlerager. Battleragers throw themselves into combat with heedless abandon, gleefully charging in against impossible odds, relying on their natural toughness and vitality to keep them alive.

Even as a child, Drew thrilled to exploits of his grandfather, also a battlerager, and he knew that when he grew up, such was his destiny. He was rougher than other children his age, and even playful fights often ended with broken bones and terrible bruises. As he grew older Drex grew more and more wild. By the time he reached adulthood, he was shunned by most members of the clan.

When he fights, he seems to lose all control, tearing into his foes with tenacity fueled by abject rage. Like many battleragers, Drex partakes of a potent brew called gutshaker, a blend of fermented goats milk and hard liquor. When not in combat, Drex is boisterous and talkative, always looking for his next challenge.


Nohwear wrote:
Would you allow someone to take an archetype that is normally associated with a different race. For example someone who is not a Kobold taking one of their trap based archetypes.

I thought long about this but after much internal struggle I do not believe I could allow cross utilization of archetypes. At least not for this Adventure path.


DM Red Dawg wrote:
Nohwear wrote:
Would you allow someone to take an archetype that is normally associated with a different race. For example someone who is not a Kobold taking one of their trap based archetypes.
I thought long about this but after much internal struggle I do not believe I could allow cross utilization of archetypes. At least not for this Adventure path.

What, I don't understand what Nohwear is referring to. Anyone have an example? How can you have an archetype meant for a different race? Some archetypes you have to be a certain race to get, but that is all I'm aware of.

Silver Crusade

DoubleGold wrote:
DM Red Dawg wrote:
Nohwear wrote:
Would you allow someone to take an archetype that is normally associated with a different race. For example someone who is not a Kobold taking one of their trap based archetypes.
I thought long about this but after much internal struggle I do not believe I could allow cross utilization of archetypes. At least not for this Adventure path.
What, I don't understand what Nohwear is referring to. Anyone have an example? How can you have an archetype meant for a different race? Some archetypes you have to be a certain race to get, but that is all I'm aware of.

this right here. Stuff like this.


so in other words, take the forgemaster archetype without being a Dwarf? That sounds like it is only possible with a house rule.


DoubleGold wrote:
so in other words, take the forgemaster archetype without being a Dwarf? That sounds like it is only possible with a house rule.

that is exactly what he was asking, and apparently the answer was no. i agree personally, the racial archetypes are for flavor and suit the races they are for mostly

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Which races would you label as monstrous vs normal?


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Which races would you label as monstrous vs normal?

The answer is not as simple as it once was but I would define any common citizen of a major city in Golarion like Absalom as a non monstrous race.

It would be someone/somerace that could walk among others without instant fear or disgust for the most part.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Sounds good, common sense works for me.

I was going to query you on your "street cred" for posting and such, but you've got 700+ posts, so you're not just a flash in the pan guy saying they want to run a game.


DM Red Dawg wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Which races would you label as monstrous vs normal?

The answer is not as simple as it once was but I would define any common citizen of a major city in Golarion like Absalom as a non monstrous race.

It would be someone/somerace that could walk among others without instant fear or disgust for the most part.

got it, answered, that was exactly the type of question I was trying to ask earlier, but didn't know how to word it. I'm reading the relationships and physical description to give me an idea. Assimars and Slyphs can pass for human. Stuff like Undines and Fetchlings get along with other races as well as catfolk. Anyway, I've already got my race picked out so I'll put it in my backstory as to why he is there and how he got accepted.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

The campaign is not far from Belkzen though, so what's "normal" in Magnimar might not be what's normal around here.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
The campaign is not far from Belkzen though, so what's "normal" in Magnimar might not be what's normal around here.

I agree but the players guide for giantslayer gives this information:

Races
Western Avistan is still a thinly inhabited frontier in many
places. While it is home to humanoids of all types, humans
are the most common race found in this region. Halforcs
are also fairly common, as are dwarves, half lings,
gnomes, elves, and half-elves. Dwarves’ and gnomes’
defensive training racial trait makes both of these races
strong choices for this Adventure Path. In addition, players
making half ling characters for this campaign should
check out the underfoot alternate racial trait, which gives
them bonuses when fighting foes larger than themselves.
Among the humans, Varisians, Chelaxians, and Taldans
are the most common ethnic groups in the region. However,
it wouldn’t be out of place to find Kellids or Ulfens who have
followed adventure south and made their way to Trunau
on their journey. Likewise, characters can come to this
campaign from anywhere in the Inner Sea region.


any chance we can have more than one campaign trait? They are so awesome.


DoubleGold wrote:
any chance we can have more than one campaign trait? They are so awesome.

You could use more if you can work it into your background.


My submission; Kametree the Human Cleric


Current Submissions: please respond if missing

Martial:

1/2 orc Barbarian - Valax Soars-on-Land
Dwarven Barbarian - Drex Bloodmonger
1/2 Elf Ranger - Rydell Derrick Ellindorr
1/2 Elf Ranger - Arzam of the Wild

Divine:

Human Cleric - Kametree

Arcane:

Human Stormborn Sorcerer (Gambit)

Hybrid Classes:
1/2 Orc Warpriest - (HighonHolyWater)


How do you want to handle the Ioun Wyrd from Familiar Folio? I am sorry, but I can not create a link right now.


Here it is, a slyph ranged fighter (weapon master longbow). He has a high intelligence for skill points, because I want my fighter to do more things than just shoot the enemies, and he has just enough to do it.

There is no avatar that matches his description exactly, but this is a lot of what he looks like, minus pointy ears.


I'm just clarifying, Valax is both halves orc.


Red Dawg, I'd like to introduce you to one of Trunau's up-and-coming militia members, Vors Kiljayden. He's interesting in joining your adventuring party (good luck getting him to admit it, though).
http://paizo.com/people/VorsKiljayden


Nohwear wrote:
How do you want to handle the Ioun Wyrd from Familiar Folio? I am sorry, but I can not create a link right now.

I do not see a real problem with this as a familiar but do wonder how to handle the first IOUN stone.

This is the link Ioun Wyrd


Valax Soars-on-Land wrote:
I'm just clarifying, Valax is both halves orc.

haha sorry I missed that but still a very good entry for the location.


TheWaskally wrote:

Red Dawg, I'd like to introduce you to one of Trunau's up-and-coming militia members, Vors Kiljayden. He's interesting in joining your adventuring party (good luck getting him to admit it, though).

http://paizo.com/people/VorsKiljayden

the formatting for the link is in error but I did get direct access for review through the visual url.

Human Barbarian


Interesting enough that we get more martial contenders. This may very well be a tribe in the end seeking to unseat the Giants in its own right.

Current Submissions:

Martial:

Orc Barbarian - Valax Soars-on-Land
Dwarven Barbarian - Drex Bloodmonger
1/2 Elf Ranger - Rydell Derrick Ellindorr
1/2 Elf Ranger - Arzam of the Wild
Human Barbarian - Vors Kiljayden
Slyph Fighter - Hunter William

Divine:

Human Cleric - Kametree

Arcane:

Human Stormborn Sorcerer (Gambit)

Hybrid Classes:
1/2 Orc Warpriest - (HighonHolyWater)


wow lots of martial characters, I was thinking a Halfling cavalier of the paw, or a Halfling ranger horselord/trapper. Both are martial Halflings on a wolf. I was favoring the trapper to deal with, well you know, traps.

Might do a Halfling oracle of nature (mounted on a wolf) instead... either way he would have the Trunau Native trait, cause he would be from Trunau...

any opinions? Oh, Maybe I should ask, are two archetypes OK?


Is there something wrong with Dundin? He will trim the 16 WIS to 12 to make 15 pts.

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