Grappling someone in mid air

So I'm trying to figure out how grapple works if your opponent is flying while you are grappling them, but you yourself are not flying. This situation actually arose recently in a scenario and there seemed to be a great deal of confusion as to what happens.

Any explanation with sources would be amazing.

A question probably better asked in the Rules Forum, but here goes.

Nothing in the fly skill or the grappled condition says you're unable to keep flying in a grapple, but weight load might make things impossible. Also, there's a fairly hefty fly check involved when you collide with something while flying (a condition I would consider grapple to meet) so it's possibly a moot point.

Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.

I'm not sure what your confusion is, your post is incredibly vague.

If it's about the 'cannot move' restriction and how that interacts with gravity... That is an open question of mine as well.
But given the difference between the grapple wording and e.g. the stronger/anchored version of Entangled ('entirely prevents movement'),
IMHO the grappled wording means that you just cannot move yourself, but outside forces can, e.g. Gravity or Bullrushes.

If one character that is grappling cannot pass the Fly check to Hover, then they would fall (at the end of their turn).
If another character grappling them wants to hold on, they can, but then they suffer encumbrance from the other characters' full weight including gear. Encumbrance (and Grapple Condition's DEX penalty) affects Fly skill.

Succesful Grapple checks moves the target adjacent to you, but nothing keeps them there per se.

I should clarify. I'm not speaking about someone actively flying, I guess I'm talking about someone who is levitating?

Someone who is just hovering in the air via a potion of levitate or something of the sort.

I would not invoke the collision rules here. Grappled doesn't involve a body slam, it involves getting a minor hold on them. I would invoke that rule for a Bullrush, or getting hit by very large thrown rocks (or thrown creatures).

As levitate? I'd rule that as long as you're not exceeding levitate's maximum load, both parties are in a grapple at whichever altitude they started at. If the "flying" creature broke free, I'd have the grappler drop to the ground and take normal fall damage.

I should clarify. I'm not speaking about someone actively flying, I guess I'm talking about someone who is levitating?

Someone who is just hovering in the air via a potion of levitate or something of the sort.

So you can flat out ignore any rule dependent on " If you are using wings to fly ".

I'm not sure what your confusion is, your post is incredibly vague.

If it's about the 'cannot move' restriction and how that interacts with gravity... That is an open question of mine as well.
But given the difference between the grapple wording and e.g. the stronger/anchored version of Entangled ('entirely prevents movement'),
IMHO the grappled wording means that you just cannot move yourself, but outside forces can, e.g. Gravity or Bullrushes.

If one character that is grappling cannot pass the Fly check to Hover, then they would fall (at the end of their turn).
If another character grappling them wants to hold on, they can, but then they suffer encumbrance from the other characters' full weight including gear. Encumbrance (and Grapple Condition's DEX penalty) affects Fly skill.

Succesful Grapple checks moves the target adjacent to you, but nothing keeps them there per se.

Sorry I will try to be more specific. What are the rules for grappling someone who is hovering via a spell or potion of levitate, when you are not hovering nor are capable of flight. Are you still able to perform all possible actions listed in the CRB if you maintain the grapple over subsequent rounds, is the grapple check harder, I'm just trying to figure out how it all works.

I apologize if I still haven't been clear enough.

Running the scenario I think you are discussing, I had two people grappling in mid-air over water. It was a funny thing to imagine, but I ran it as if the two were grappling on solid ground. Just the description of a human and a tengu flailing at each other in mid-air was enough to get the table laughing. And then when I "won" the grapple contest, I announced the human was going to ram the tengu into the side of the house.

What all that was attempting to say was, tell a good story. Never let the rules get in the way of telling a good story, one your players will remember long after the game is over.

So I'm trying to figure out how grapple works if your opponent is flying while you are grappling them, but you yourself are not flying. This situation actually arose recently in a scenario and there seemed to be a great deal of confusion as to what happens.

Any explanation with sources would be amazing.

If the grapple succeeds:

...If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition...

Since the target gains the Grappled condition:

Grappled creatures cannot move...

I can't find a specific rule that states that flying is movement, but I think that's a pretty safe assumption. So your target would stop moving (i.e. stop flying) as soon as it is successfully grappled.

What ensues should be pretty easy to figure out from there. The target would stop flying and follow whatever rules apply to a flying creature that can no longer fly (feather fall for a Fly spell, float down or something for Flight ability, etc.).

Edit: I had written this before you clarified that the target was using the Levitate spell. However, the Levitate spell states that moving up or down is a move action. Grappled doesn't state that you can't take move actions, but Levitate uses the word "move" quite frequently in its description (five times). It "seems" like this spell causes movement, which would be disallowed by the Grappled condition. I'm afraid I can't find anything more definitive than that.

Sorry I will try to be more specific. What are the rules for grappling someone who is hovering via a spell or potion of levitate, when you are not hovering nor are capable of flight. Are you still able to perform all possible actions listed in the CRB if you maintain the grapple over subsequent rounds, is the grapple check harder, I'm just trying to figure out how it all works.

Well your posts are still incredibly vague, but going off the cue of other posters, I will guess that you mean if both grapplers are in 'mid-air' even though one can't fly... meaning: they jumped, they teleported, they reversed the grapple after getting grappled and moved into the air by the flying creature, the ground fell out beneath them, etc...? Of course, one non-flying character could very well be standing on solid ground the entire time, but I guess that's not what you're asking about?

Now if you are imagining a non-flyer in mid air grappling a flyer, I guess you are talking about a situation where the non-flyer grappler would rely on their 'target' to support them in the air, right?

I think that the Rules As Written will not give you an outcome you will like, since Grapple doesn't force you to 'stick together', it just moves you adjacent following the successful check. It also doesn't turn either character into 'carried weight' of the other, and certainly the target couldn't be considered to be carrying the attacker/grappler. By the RAW, the non-flyer should fall and nothing happens to the flyer (although the Grapple isn't technically broken just because the Grappler fell, and the Flyer would continue to suffer DEX penalties and not be able to move until they 'break free').

If you want to stretch the rules a bit, you could consider each party to be mutually carrying each other. In the case of two flyers, that would mean both would need to fail a Hover check in order for them both to fall (and either party could choose to not try to Hover, which not being able to Fly would be equivalent to). I guess you could say if one party passes their Fly/Hover check, then the next party doesn't need to consider the others' weight in their Encumbrance calculation (which affects the Fly/Hover check). In your case (or the case I assume you mean, since you still didn't make it clear), the non-flying Grappler is not supporting their own weight, and on the Grappled Target's turn (who can Fly) they must pass a Hover check (since they can't otherwise move between squares) taking into account the encumbrance from the full weight of the attacker (and their carried gear) and the penalty that applies to Fly/Hover checks. If they pass, they (and their 'carried gear' hovers in place). If they fail, the normal consequences of failing a Hover check take place, you do not remain Flying and you fall.

Note that a Flyer can choose to not try to pass a Hover check at all, in which case they fall, but they can try a DC10 Fly check to avoid falling damage. They cannot avoid the falling damage if they failed another flying check, but if they don't try a normal flying check in the first place then can try to negate the damage. Any other 'passengers' they may have with them do not get to make this check (unless they have the ability to fly themself).

EDIT: Levitate isn't using the Flying rules at all, it is not flying as far as the game is concerned. This scenario is still subject to the fact that the Grapple rules don't truly 'stick together' the grapplers, thus one of the grapplers could fall if otherwise unsupported. Again, you could choose to go against the Rules as Written, and say that the grapplers are considered to be carrying each other if the other is unsupported. Since Levitate isn't flying, that means that the only think you need to worry about is weight, if one character is not supporting themself, and the Levitating character is considered to be holding them (willingly or not), then you just add up the total weight of the characters and all carried gear. If that amount is greater than what Levitate allows: (total weight up to 100 lbs./level), then the spell no longer helps to support that weight and both characters would fall.

Flying in itself isn't just movement. It provides elevation in addition to a unique and efficient mode of transportation.

It's one thing to say people can't move while they are grappled, but to say they can't fly is a whole different matter.

The rules say it prevents movement, the intent that the creature is held in place. It doesn't say the creature is denied any ability to fly or maintain altitude, so assuming successful Fly checks or other similar conditions regarding an elevated target, they can still maintain altitude.

Also, the flying creature that was grappled can just as easily reverse the grapple, and drag/reposition the creature right with them as they are flying in the air.

If you can't use your legs to walk, you surely can't use your wings to fly. As to spells giving flight, anything that is controlled by the mind should still work. If flying, I would allow grapples.

As to levitate, I see two schools of thought, one is not to allow grapple checks as there is no resistance (ground) for either party to gain any leverage. And at the same time anyone that is not levitating/floating or whatever, will have to use a whole lot of effort just to stay in the air while holding onto the other.

The other side of the coin is to allow both sides grapple checks as even though they don't have any resistance (ground) to gain leverage, they don't have any to help stop being grappled so they are still on equal footing (floating?), so to speak.

To sum up leviatating grapple checks, I would say all or nothing. Just decide as a table.

But you CAN use your legs to STAND UP while in a grapple.
(either to maintain that position or stand up if you were tripped)
Grapple doesn't make you Prone.
You can also use your legs to KICK somebody while you are in a grapple (or Rake if you have that).

If you're going to go off into ad-hoc "flavor" house-ruling territory in a Rules Question thread, it's respectful of the OP or others who are desperately trying to understand what the RULES actually indicate, if you would give a warning before doing so, that what you're stating isn't from the RAW per se. Grapple NOWHERE discusses 'resistance' or 'being on the ground' as a pre-requisite.

Wow Quandary, should no one answer the question in any fashion other than, "By RAW, there is no answer" since there isn't? The boards would be a whole lot shorter that way.

"I see two schools of thought", I thought would strongly indicate that it is thought, not RAW. Otherwise I might have written, "There are two conflicting rules found here and here."

Your right. There is no word, "resistance" in the rules we are discussing. There is only:

A levitating creature that attacks with a melee or ranged weapon finds itself increasingly unstable; the first attack has a –1 penalty on attack rolls, the second –2, and so on, to a maximum penalty of –5. A full round spent stabilizing allows the creature to begin again at –1.

Which is the game mechanic for what I was describing. At the time of my last post, my cable internet was down and I was working off an iPad, sorry for the lack of RAW to back up my understanding. To me, IMHO, as I see it, as I understand it, as I would rule: the above quote indicates that by RAI, expressed in RAW, there is a problem with control while levitating. This problem would surely, IMHO, bleed into grapple. If shooting a bow gets you spinning around, trying to put an arm bar or MACH move on an active resister (small, simple grapple techniques that all require your strength and POSITIONING to work) would surely be affected as well.

As to, "Stand Up" while in a grapple, that is debatable. Sure you can stay standing, but that is not moving or standing up. The correlation that I was trying to make is that hovering, i.e. not moving while flying with no outside forces working against you (i.e. a creature working against your flight) forces fly checks so having that creature work against your flight would severely limit if not exclude a character's ability to stay aloft.

As to being respectful, twice you directly insulted or chastised the OP for not writing enough information to make you happy. Then you indicated I am disrespectful because you don't like or agree with my style of rules discussion. Really?

And finally as to RAW and "ad-hoc "flavor" house-ruling territory" what about:

If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.

The advice in one of your posts goes directly against this clearly explained RAW. In this very same Rules Question thread no less.

But I appreciate your style of calling out any perceived slight as an issue so that I would have a chance to correct or explain myself, so I have given you the same opportunity by showing you the same level of "respect".

@Sheppard
Who is in "control" of the Grapple?

If the flying creature is in control, they can continue to move at half speed. This is important since Hover is a special feat that allows flying creatures to remain aloft without taking move actions. Without Hover or an ability which negates the need (perfect maneuverability, etc...) there is no way that flight can be maintained.

If the landlocked creature is in control then the flying creature (by the grapple rules) is moved to a square adjacent and possibly no longer flying. If the landlocked creature somehow grappled the flying creature in the air then both would be plummeting. There are some options in the grapple rules about maintaining hold(-20) and such which may make for a more robust scenario...

Wow Quandary, should no one answer the question in any fashion other than, "By RAW, there is no answer" since there isn't?

Nope, and that's NOT WHAT I WROTE...

If you're going to go off into ad-hoc "flavor" house-ruling territory in a Rules Question thread, it's respectful of the OP or others who are desperately trying to understand what the RULES actually indicate, if you would give a warning before doing so, that what you're stating isn't from the RAW per se.

And what do you know? How did I introduce my advice that diverged from RAW but I felt might be more satisfying for the OP?

If you want to stretch the rules a bit, you could...

It's also absurd to say there is 'no answer' by RAW, there is certainly an answer for how the rules would resolve (at least in this case, sometimes the RAW is objectively insufficient), even if we may aesthetically not like that result.

I'm not sure what your problem is with telling the OP that their question was incredibly vague, which was not a personal attack, and the OP themself recognized that fact and tried to add more details... Which in fact has enabled providing an actually useful answer (although we still don't know the actual situation including if the non-flying grappler is standing on the ground or not).

Certainly the Levitation rules apply to all levitating characters, and Grapple checks being CMB checks being attacks/attack rolls pretty much slot right into the 'progressive instability' rule, zero special justification necessary. It wouldn't quite be justified by a straight reading of the rules, but you could choose to apply the 'progressive instability' penalties to ALL characters supported by a given Levitation spell, taking into account ALL attacks taken by those characters in total while supported by the spell. Although in the case of two characters supported by the same spell Grappling each other (with necessary rules modification to allow that in the first place), their position TO EACH OTHER is not particularly unstable, so applying these penalties doesn't seem particularly justified.

@ErrantPursuit: It's already been established that the OP is talking about LEVITATION, not flying, so flying rules don't apply.

This is important since Hover is a special feat that allows flying creatures to remain aloft without taking move actions. Without Hover or an ability which negates the need (perfect maneuverability, etc...) there is no way that flight can be maintained.

To be clear, any creature with a Fly speed can try to Hover, it just requires a Fly check. Perfect Maneuverability has no special ability here, it just gets a bonus to the check (+8). Pathfinder changed some things about Fly compared to 3.5.

While Fly checks usually happen as part of some sort of movement, the skill itself says: "Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.", "a situation" plausibly being "not moving while being in mid-air and being in danger of falling if you don't pass a Fly/Hover check".

Hover the Feat just says "A creature with this feat can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check." (and some stuff about debris clouds), which isn't really different from passing a check (other than the debris cloud).

So after chastising me for being disrespectful you go back and reiterate one of my suggestions: since both people levitating are on equal footing, just use the normal rules for grapple.

While I agree it is absurd to believe the rules cannot cover the situation we are discussing, it is not absurd to believe that they are not presented as RAW. As evidenced by this thread, there is a lot that goes into adjudicating encounters and much of it is open to interpretation and application of a few different rules mechanics combined to meet an outcome that is not spelled out as RAW. My suggestions did that without spelling out every little piece while trying to give a reasoning behind either of the two options that I could justify while following these rule mechanics. While I did not use defined terms and quotes in my first post, I believe my second post showed that I did not just make stuff up.

That second post was also meant to show you that your strong stance of dismissing my suggestions was not warranted.

As to this being a Rule Question forum, yes it is. It is where we discuss rules and try to understand them better. It is not a place where we only quote the rules. We pick them apart, digest them and work through them. That is what we do. Even if I post an idea that is completely incorrect, it doesn't mean it won't help the discussion. Pointing out that I am incorrect is fine and even welcomed. It might help me or others understand the mistake. Dismissing interpretations as disrespectful is the exact opposite of fine and welcomed.

Okay so I'm just going to lay out exactly what happened in the hopes that it will clear things up.

In a particular scenario an alchemist npc who is on a pirate ship drinks a potion of levitate and then floats up into the air. He is floating right next to the ship's mast.

An enterprising player then decided to climb up the opposite side of the ship's mast while the NPC was busy throwing bombs at the other PCs. Ultimately the player then climbed around to the side of the mast right next to the NPC and decided to jump from the mast to the NPC Alchemist and Grapple him in mid air. The PC was successful in all the checks he needed to accomplish this.

It is at this point that I was unclear on what could possibly happen. From what I understand the potion of levitate allowed them both to stay in the air as they did not have enough combined weight to sink to the ground.

However, as the Player was in control of the grapple and continued to remain so for multiple rounds, I wasn't sure what the player could actually do in said grapple because they were both floating in mid air.

I mean as it stands grapple has a flow chart for what can be done if a grapple is maintained over multiple rounds. But how can you "pin" or "tie up" someone while you are both in mid air? I'm not sure how that all works and I just want to be clear for the future.

Luckily the other players ended up causing the Alchemist NPC to surrender as per stat block.

I don't think you can really make a call that will line up with RAW. It just isn't covered.

Grapple is a great start for holding on to someone, but the rules assume you can maintain your position as per normal, not use the grapple to keep you aloft. For instance, you could not grapple while holding on to a rock wall, so it would be hard to find something that says you can grapple while holding on to a target in the same manor.

Since there is nothing to hold you in place, any action you make will have an equal effect on you. If you try to twist the target, you are going to twist the other way. If you push him up, you are going down. If you push him down, you are going up. This is what I was getting at in my earlier post about resistance (ground) and not having any.

Firing a bow makes the levitating character unstable. Surely getting hit/bumped/grabbed/groped by an equal size creature would do the same.

The levitate potion would only support 300 lbs. Unless you have some very light weight characters with limited gear, that weight has been exceeded and I don't know at what speed it would happen, but both combatants would head towards the ground.

So best I can tell by RAW, you leap, grapple him and go crashing to the ground.

But really, what is the fun in that? I would probably do something like (WARNING: THAT MEANS NOT RAW, MAYBE EVEN NOT RAI) "fall" slowly, maybe 5'/round/10 lbs. over weight. I would make the initial grapple check as per normal because the PC had something to work off of. Then I would allow the PC to make grapple checks at -5 due to lack of resistance (ground/water/even air, if flying). If the Alchemist were to reverse the grapple and release or escape the grapple, the PC would instantly fall to the ground.

Just my ideas as to how I would run it. Seems like a cool encounter.