Skill Checks and taking 20

[ograx]

We've been playing through Starfinder Society adventures and I'm a little confused about skill checks and taking 20. If they are facing no adverse effect and not in combat should I still be making them roll checks for most of these checks? These checks run the gamut of computer,engineering,perception and most other checks that from what I read are allowed to have the take 20 action being used.

Thoughts?

[Super Zero]

Taking 20 is basically shorthand for "Assume I keep trying again until I roll a 20."

It's for situations where nothing is stopping you from trying again, so you're able to keep trying at a difficult task until you get it right. If individual failures don't matter, time isn't a factor, and a character is theoretically capable of a task, the they're going to get it and the players around the table don't have to worry about rolling and resolving a dozen checks to get to the one that mattered.

The thing about taking 20 is that you're assuming the character is trying again and again and failing several times. It takes 20 times as long in game, and they fail first. That's why you can't do it when there's a penalty for failures (like falling or setting off security). Taking 20 is for when there's no cost to failure but wasted time, but you're not actually worried about the time.

Remember, though, that you can also take 10. That's a bit different, thematically. That just means that when you're not under pressure, you can make a non-risk-taking, average effort without a problem. Taking 10 is just one check, but you assume your roll is a 10 without actually rolling it; you can't pull off anything your character considers difficult, but you also won't botch anything they consider easy. The only requirement for taking 10 is that the character isn't under pressure.

[ograx]

So would something like not learning a non-essential piece of information count as an adverse effect?

What about spotting traps using search? Is that an automatic 20 as well if it is out of combat?

[Thanshin]

ograx wrote:

So would something like not learning a non-essential piece of information count as an adverse effect?

What about spotting traps using search? Is that an automatic 20 as well if it is out of combat?

You can keep searching even when you think you got it right at first try, so yes, you can take 20 on searching.

It's less useful to keep searching for a trap when you've already stepped on it, so you can't take 20 unless rolling a 1 would not make you fall on the trap.

Just replace "I take 20" with :
PC: "I roll. 13"
GM: "this happens."
PC: "Ok. I try again. 1"
GM: "this other thing happens."
PC: "Ok. I try one more time. 16"
etc, an arbitrary amount of times until you roll a 20.

So, in the case of a trap it doesn't work, because it would be:
PC: "I search for traps. 13"
GM: "You find nothing."
PC: "I search again. 1"
GM: You step on a trap and electrocute yourself for 2d6 damage."

[The Ragi]

Thanshin wrote:

So, in the case of a trap it doesn't work, because it would be:
PC: "I search for traps. 13"
GM: "You find nothing."
PC: "I search again. 1"
GM: You step on a trap and electrocute yourself for 2d6 damage."

Not at all, not at all.

Quote:

CRB 144

PERCEPTION (WIS)
Search
As a move action, you can use Perception to search for
something in particular, such as finding an invisible creature
that has made itself known or a hidden creature you know is
in the area, or looking for nearby traps or hazards.
...
The DC is determined by the Stealth
check of the creature, by the trap or hazard involved, or by the
GM. If you are not in combat, you can take 20 on a Perception
check to search

You're thinking of disabling a trap.

Quote:

CRB 141

ENGINEERING (INT; TRAINED ONLY)
Disable Device
You can use Engineering to disable a lock, a trap, or
a mechanical or technological device, or to disarm an
explosive, as long as the device is unattended and
you can access it.
...
If you fail the check by 5 or
more, something goes wrong. If the device is an explosive or a trap,
you trigger it.
...
Due to the danger, you cannot take 20 on an Engineering check
to disable a device

Quote:

CRB 143

MYSTICISM (WIS; TRAINED ONLY)
Disable Magic Device
You can use Mysticism to disable a magical trap or other magical
item. This functions as the disable device task of the Engineering
skill, and the DC of the check is based on the trap itself. You can’t
take 20 on a Mysticism check to disable a magic device.

[Kvetchus]

@The Ragi - ok, fair enough, but I think the point Thanshin was making is that if there are adverse results for failure, you can't really Take 20 (or 10, for that matter). He should have perhaps chosen Disable Trap, but the point still stands.

In cases where it's not specified, the GM needs to determine if Take 20 is allowed. In some cases, it's straightforward, in other cases it's not. Medicine when treating Deadly Wounds, for example, is not straightforward because the term "treatment" isn't well defined. There are other threads about this, so I won't go into it, but the point is the GM needs to decide if "treatment" means successfully restoring hit points or means attempting to restore hit points. If it means success, then you can Take 20 because it says you can only treat once a day. If treatment means the attempt, then you cannot Take 20 because you have to assume the first try is a failure (because the Take 20 rules specifically say it assumes failures). Now... in my games, I houserule that in the case of Medicine, Take 20 reflects spending 20x as long researching and preparing for one, single, very precise treatment that succeeds because of the solid prep time. However, I DO NOT apply that same rule elsewhere. Mostly this is because my party has no Mystics and therefore kinda needs all the help it can get in HP healing....

Anyway, I present that use-case as an example. It's up to the GM to decide ultimately, though the CRB provides explicit guidelines for some specific skill checks.

[ograx]

I'm completely new to Gm'ing and Tabletop RPG's in general so I'm finding some difficulty in how to approach some things gamewise. For example running across traps in the modules we are playing. Since my PC's are not in combat anytime they search a room where a trap is present they therefore should be allowed to take 20 and add there perception bonus to find traps/things in room?

My problem with this is all the traps we have run across so far have a perception dc of 21 which even at level 1 makes finding everything a guaranteed success as they have perception score higher than 1. This is not to say that when they try to disarm they don't successfully set off as from what I understand they cannot take 20 on those checks.

[The Ragi]

ograx wrote:

Since my PC's are not in combat anytime they search a room where a trap is present they therefore should be allowed to take 20 and add there perception bonus to find traps/things in room?

My problem with this is all the traps we have run across so far have a perception dc of 21 which even at level 1 makes finding everything a guaranteed success as they have perception score higher than 1. This is not to say that when they try to disarm they don't successfully set off as from what I understand they cannot take 20 on those checks.

That's how the CRB goes - take 20 on the Perception to Search, but not on Engineering or Mysticism to Disable them.

I don't have a problem with that. Letting the players that invested in such skills actually risk out their necks to disarm a trap seems more rewarding than letting the party tank always trigger the trap by walking straight into it while taking point.

[Dragonchess Player]

Kvetchus wrote:

@The Ragi - ok, fair enough, but I think the point Thanshin was making is that if there are adverse results for failure, you can't really Take 20 (or 10, for that matter).

No, you definitely can Take 10 if there are adverse results for failure. You just can't take 10 when threatened/in combat or otherwise distracted (and risk of failure does not in and of itself constitute being "threatened").

Too many people conflate that restriction from Taking 20 to Taking 10.

Taking 20 to detect a trap with Perception and then Taking 10 to disarm the trap with Engineering or Mysticism is totally allowable by RAW.

[ograx]

I guess another thing I’m running into while we are going through the Starfinder society scenarios is culture checks at the beginning of the missions to determine if they would know more about planet/area before they explore it. Is this another scenario where taking 20 is allowed and thus giving them a autosuccess at getting all information available?

[Dragonchess Player]

ograx wrote:

I guess another thing I’m running into while we are going through the Starfinder society scenarios is culture checks at the beginning of the missions to determine if they would know more about planet/area before they explore it. Is this another scenario where taking 20 is allowed and thus giving them a autosuccess at getting all information available?

Generally speaking, if the characters a) have ranks in the Computer skill and b) have access to a planetary/space station infosphere or the appropriate downloaded data set, they can Take 20 to "recall knowledge." The same way we can pull out our smart phone and perform a Google or Bing search (or whatever your search engine of choice is).

Some (uncommon) types of information may not be available on the infosphere and/or the data search may be noticed (which may draw unwanted attention).