Say I play a Blessing of Nethys (or use MM Alahazra's ability or some other scouting tech). The first card I examine is a monster (with no trigger). The second is Shrieking Plant, and I fail the triggered check.
When you examine this card, succeed at a Stealth or Survival 9 check or the Shrieking Plant is undefeated.
If undefeated, examine the top 3 cards of your location deck and encounter the first monster you find. The banish the Shrieking Plant.
Is the monster I already examined (which was on top of the Shrieking Plant) now back among the "top 3 cards"? Or is an examined card sitting in some kind of out-of-deck limbo, so I should look at the NEXT 3 cards?
Thanks!
Additional question: I encounter or examine the Shrieking Plant and it's undefeated. I examine a monster (no trigger), an ally (with a trigger that makes them easier to acquire, like Kafar), and a monster with a trigger that makes me encounter it.
What order do these get resolved in? Do I...
1. Stop examining when I hit Monster 1, encounter it, then keep examining and resolve the other triggers?
2. Examine all 3 cards, one at a time, resolve the ally's trigger, resolve Monster 2's trigger (and encounter it), then go back and encounter Monster 1?
3. Perform some other permutation I haven't thought of?
I'm leaning towards #2.
Thanks again!
I encounter or examine the Shrieking Plant ...1. Stop examining when I hit Monster 1, encounter it, then keep examining and resolve the other triggers?
2. Examine all 3 cards, one at a time, resolve the ally's trigger, resolve Monster 2's trigger (and encounter it), then go back and encounter Monster 1?
3. Perform some other permutation I haven't thought of?
I'm leaning towards #2.
Well, while I was reading this, I was thinking 'why, it's obviously N1', but then I realized I wasn't at all sure WHY it's supposed to be N1. After giving it some thought, however, I realized you're asking about TWO distinct situation which don't necessarily have to resolve the same way:
- First, you *examined* the Shrieker and failed the Trigger check: now you need to examine the top 3 cards and encounter the first monster. Since you're still in the Trigger 'phase', so to speak, of the Shrieker - you perform this condition immediately (fighting the first monster the moment you flip it over). Since you examine cards one by one - you have to resolve the encounter before you even know what the next 2 cards are.
- Second, you *encounter* and fail the Shrieker; now you need to 'examine and encounter', but this power has "normal" priority. The closest applicable rule I think of is "Finish one thing before another" - so you flip over the first monster, but then need to finish with the other two examines before resolving the encounter; since your next two cards have Triggers however - you need to *immediately* resolve those two before you deal with the first monster.
Problem is, in the first case, I can easily see an argument that - again because of 'one thing before another' , which is probably why you lean towards option 2?- you still need to finish the exams before the first monster encounter (in essence, "examine the top 3" and "encounter the first monster" both need to be performed immediately, as part of Plant's Trigger - therefor, they have equal priority, and since you *need* to start with the exams - you need to finish with them too, before doing the encounter)
The opposing argument (i.e. my initial gut feeling) would be that the Shrieker's trigger clause in effect gives the first examined monster itself some sort of "Encounter me immediately" Trigger clause. I admit I can't really find any rule support for this, however.
So, after writing it all down - I definitely agree Number 2 should be the way to go, regardless if encountered or Triggered the Shrieker.
Say I play a Blessing of Nethys (or use MM Alahazra's ability or some other scouting tech). The first card I examine is a monster (with no trigger). The second is Shrieking Plant, and I fail the triggered check.
When you examine this card, succeed at a Stealth or Survival 9 check or the Shrieking Plant is undefeated.
If undefeated, examine the top 3 cards of your location deck and encounter the first monster you find. The banish the Shrieking Plant.
Is the monster I already examined (which was on top of the Shrieking Plant) now back among the "top 3 cards"? Or is an examined card sitting in some kind of out-of-deck limbo, so I should look at the NEXT 3 cards?
This is somewhat more bag-of-worms-y than your additional question. Possibly relevant rules:
Sometimes a card allows you to examine one or more cards—that means looking at the specified card and then putting it back where it came from.
If there are any faceup cards on the deck, ignore them when determining which cards you are examining
Examine the cards in the order you find them, and put them back in the same order unless instructed otherwise. If anything would cause you to shuffle the deck while you are examining cards, shuffle the deck only after you put the cards back.
The above raises a couple of questions:
- does 'looking at a card' make it a 'faceup card'?- regardless if the above is YES - when do you return it facedown to the deck? Quote 3 would suggest, you only return the examined cards to the deck when you finish all examines.
- My call on Question 1 would be that examined cards are NOT 'faceup' cards. While a 'faceup card' is not defined in the Rulebook, the Rulebook does give an inkling that such a card is permanently placed on a deck/playing field until a specific power changes that state (as opposed to the 'look at it and return it back' examine). Therefore, you cannot skip the top examined cards on the grounds of Quote 2
- Quote 3 however, very strongly (imho) implies that examined cards are NOT part of the deck, until the whole chain of examines is resolved. Still, I can also see this being interpreted as "you look at top card, return it; you take the second from top card from beneath it, look and return it; take the third from the top card ... repeat until you run out of examines (and shuffle/change the order of the deck, dependent on any relevant powers)" - i.e. you don't really 'return' the examined cards to the deck after you finish all examines, as much as 'you leave them in the place you returned them to after looking at them'.
It is a pretty ambiguous issue, but since I definitely prefer to adjudicate by K.I.S.S. - I'd go with the first-glance implications of Quote 3, rule examined card 'in limbo', and exclude them from any further Trigger examinations.
So, after writing it all down - I definitely agree Number 2 should be the way to go, regardless if encountered or Triggered the Shrieker.
Your line of thinking, particularly the "finish one thing before doing another," is what led me to that conclusion as well.
Any confirmation from the sages?
It is a pretty ambiguous issue, but since I definitely prefer to adjudicate by K.I.S.S. - I'd go with the first-glance implications of Quote 3, rule examined card 'in limbo', and exclude them from any further Trigger examinations.
Yeah, it's weird, right? Are examined cards "put back" immediately, or are they not part of the location deck until you're done examining all the cards you're going to examine?
Any insight from the Powers That Be?
This is tough. How Shrieking Plant should work is at odds with how examining works. Examined cards never leave the deck; you look at them and put them back immediately. As such, you'd re-examine the same top 3 cards if you examined Shrieking Plant, meaning that you'd just encounter Shrieking Plant again assuming it's the first monster. This doesn't mesh with the flavor of a shrieking plant which alerts some other monster to your location.
Looking at a card is not removing it from the deck. The top card is still the top card, even if you examine it.
I think an FAQ is in order here, but probably for Shrieking Plant (to banish it before examining instead of after).
For your second post, your option #2 ("Examine all 3 cards, one at a time, resolve the ally's trigger, resolve Monster 2's trigger (and encounter it), then go back and encounter Monster 1?") is correct due to Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else.
As such, you'd re-examine the same top 3 cards if you examined Shrieking Plant, meaning that you'd just encounter Shrieking Plant again assuming it's the first monster.
Shrieking Plant's a barrier, so it wouldn't make you encounter itself.
For your second post, your option #2 ("Examine all 3 cards, one at a time, resolve the ally's trigger, resolve Monster 2's trigger (and encounter it), then go back and encounter Monster 1?") is correct due to Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else.
Cool, cool. Thanks!
As such, you'd re-examine the same top 3 cards if you examined Shrieking Plant, meaning that you'd just encounter Shrieking Plant again assuming it's the first monster.Shrieking Plant's a barrier, so it wouldn't make you encounter itself.
Shows how good my memory is late at night ;)
In that case, I see no issues then. I still stand by what I wrote before that examined cards do not leave the deck. The shuffle rule is there to prevent issues of which card you need to examine next changing out from under you, and possibly causing you to examine the same card multiple times if you were unlucky with the shuffle. Search old threads for “Blackjack Dealer” to get the context of that rule addition.
As such, you'd re-examine the same top 3 cards if you examined Shrieking Plant, meaning that you'd just encounter Shrieking Plant again assuming it's the first monster.Shrieking Plant's a barrier, so it wouldn't make you encounter itself.
This is true, but another, much more crucial thing would follow from Skizzers' reasoning (which, as far as I can tell, is in line with RAW) - you examine the Shrieker, you put it back in its place within the deck, the you start examining the top 3 cards and you hit the Shrieker AGAIN! Yes, that means - you also get its Trigger again!
Now, if you're a 'glass half full' type of person, you would see this as a second chance to succeed on the Trigger check. If you look on th epposite side though - you'll see how you can actually end up in an *infinite loop*, where you keep failing the Shrieker check, examine the top 3 card, Trigger the Shrieker again, fail its check...
Looking at it like that, it's obvious that either the Shrieker is very broken, as written, or -which strikes me as much more intuitive solution- that examined card are NOT intended to be part of the location deck untill the whole current 'examine chain' is resolved (which, however, doesn't seem to be currently supported by RAW, or at least very ambiguously so)
When you examine this card, succeed at a Stealth or Survival 9 check or the Shrieking Plant is undefeated.
If undefeated, examine the top 3 cards of your location deck and encounter the first monster you find. The banish the Shrieking Plant.
OK took me a while to think it over. There are already be a lot of discussions on those topics and it is still unclear in my mind. This said, IMHO this is how it works (and how we play it anyway). I would too gladly welcome some official examples fromVic/Mike and the like.
The basic of our logic is based on that post from Vic
When you have to examine N cards on top of a location deck:
A) You do not examine the face-up cards "on top" of the location deck
B) While you process the N examinations including triggered activities, you never shuffle the location deck. If one or more powers ask you to while you process the N examinations including triggered activities, you'll do it only once at the end of the process, after having put back in the set aside cards (see below).
C) When you examine a card as part of processing the N examinations, deal completely with all triggered activities and aftermaths before going to examine the next one.
D) If a power (like the one from Estra) depends on the whole set of cards to examine (e. g. "if one of the examined card is a undead"), deal with it at the end after you have finished all activities linked to a specific examination, but before shuffling the deck if needs be. If there are many such powers, you chose the order in which you apply them.
E) Unless examining a card triggers something that will make change its position in the game, it stays where it is. So if while you are processing the examination of N cards, something makes you examine more cards (like the Shrieking Plant), this examination is usually done on the same cards (unless they moved away for a reason when then were first examined, like if you triggered/encountered/defeated a monster) restarting by the first one.
F) Trick is - as an exception - if examining a card makes you shuffle it into your location (e. g; trigger /encounter/undefeated), then you set it apart to be shuffled after all is done. But the point is, since it is supposed to be shuffled, it is no longer in the list of cards that you would examine if something else later makes you examine again cards from the start. This is (the way I see it) mandatory to avoid creating an infinite loop of Shrieking Plant examining itself (which could otherwise happen if the remaning cards in hands are such that you cannot defeat it).
So with that we can normally answer your questions:
... Is the monster I already examined (which was on top of the Shrieking Plant) now back among the "top 3 cards"? Or is an examined card sitting in some kind of out-of-deck limbo, so I should look at the NEXT 3 cards?
The monster you examine never moved (you did not encounter it), so indeed the new examination additional list created by the Shrieking Plant starts with it.
But since the Shrieking Plant is not more in the order of examination, after examining that monster (no trigger), the two next ones will be the two that were after the Shrieking Plant.And then if the initial examination (MM Alahazra's ability...) asked you to examine say 4 cards, since you ahve done monster + Shrieking Plant, you would again examine the two that were after the Shrieking Plant a second time (providing no trigger moved them the first time).
I encounter the Shrieking Plant and it's undefeated. I examine a monster (no trigger), an ally (with a trigger that makes them easier to acquire, like Kafar), and a monster with a trigger that makes me encounter it.
What order do these get resolved in?
You do 1 : Stop examining when you hit Monster 1, encounter it, manage all outcome of the encounter (that may be lead to additional examinations or to the monster being set aside), then keep examining and resolve the other triggers !
If the idea was to do 2, the way I see it if should have been written:
If undefeated, examine the top 3 cards of your location deck. THEN encounter the first monster you have found. Then banish the Shrieking Plant.
Does 'looking at a card' make it a 'faceup card'?
Obviously no since written nowhere.
And that would be a bad idea: it would mean that I soon as I have examined the villain once, I will always know were it is, even after encountering it, since nothing in the rules would ask me to flip it face-down again.I know it's tricky but "face-down" is a status that a card usually keeps as long as it is in a location deck (even set aside), even when you encounter it.
when do you return a card facedown to the deck?
Immediately after you examine it, in its previous position, unless examining it made it "move" (like moving teh box, your hand, your deck, another location, moving face up to the top of the location, or being set aside for later shuffling).
All that IMHO
@Longshot: Right, it can loop the trigger. So yeah the banish still needs to happen first for the card to not be broken based on my understanding of the rules. My brain seems to have left me this week...
Trick is - as an exception - if examining a card makes you shuffle it into your location (e. g; trigger /encounter/undefeated), then you set it apart to be shuffled after all is done. But the point is, since it is supposed to be shuffled, it is no longer in the list of cards that you would examine if something else later makes you examine again cards from the start.
First, even when 'undefeated'. the Shrieker would actually banish at the end of its encounter/Trigger, so it would not fall under your exception.
Second, even the exception itself (even while it makes a certain sense!), does not, in fact, have any rules support.
Say, you examine with BoNethys: as top card, you stumble upon Hyena, and you fail to defeat it (so it 'waits' on your Exam Chain to resolve to shuffle into the location); however, as second card, you find a Shrieker and you fail its check - nothing (*that I can find*) in the Rules says that the Hyena is NOT a part of the deck while it awaits its shuffle - so you'd need to go through it again.
Furthermore, since the Shrieker Trigger is a completely different instruction, outside of the set of (BoNethys + Hyena Trigger) which would *later* require you to encounter the Hyena second time (the Shrieker will banish after its Trigger is resolved, leaving the Hyena as the only valid target for the BoNethys exploration; however, this encounter will be ignore due to the rule quoted below), this second encounter with the Hyena must occur *now* (during the Shrieker Trigger resolution), and should *not* be prevented by the rule:
"If a card allows you to examine a card and then encounter it, and the card you examine says that when you examine it, you encounter it, encounter it only once."
IMHO.