With the new unified caster level make caster 'dips' be more attractive?


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I know the actual classes, powers and spells are still a few weeks off but based on the fact that your caster level grows with every caster class you take (so if you take 5 levels of Technomancer and 5 levels of Mystic your Caster level is 10 for ALL your spells), will taking a dip in the 'other' caster class be as detrimental as it used to be in 3.PF?

Thoughts?


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Not *as* detrimental, but still likely detrimental overall, though it depends on if you prefer quantity or quality. The 5/5 caster will have a ton of 3rd level spells (assuming prepared caster), but the 10th level caster will have 5th level spells.


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You still lose out on spell progression, which is the bigger drawback IMO. Having a bunch of different low level spells to throw around is usually a lot worse than having a few powerful high level spells. Of course, Starfinder spells might scale with caster level better. If that's the case, I could see a couple level caster dip being viable.

A single level might also be worth it to access spell trigger items from the other class, assuming magic items work similarly.

Liberty's Edge

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Brew Bird wrote:
Having a bunch of different low level spells to throw around is usually a lot worse than having a few powerful high level spells.

It depends on what you want to do. I don't want to be the guy who ends an encounter with one super-powerful spell, but I love being the guy who has a trick for every occasion, and more lower level spells really helps that work.

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

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I honestly suspect the answer is "no, not really," and part of that feeling is based on my depth of knowledge about the book you-all haven't gotten to see yet.

That said, I COULD be wrong. In a world with only spontaneous spellcasters, and technology that allows you to be effective even without class features, there may be an effective build that focuses on having more lower-level spells because there aren't preparation casters around to just prepare what you need. Especially someone willing to burn feats on longarms and longarm specialization (so offensive is not dependent on spells -- you could take Longarm proficiency at 1st and Weapon Specialization with it at 3rd), there could definitely be an interesting build in there, and it might be fun and/or effective (especially with the right group).

That said, that's a build that needs good Dex, Int, and Wisdom -- maintaining those are you level is easier in Starfinder than pathfinder, but you are still spread thinner than a single-class caster.

It'll help if you assume you shouldn't have any spells dependent on their save DC being high, which points back as a walking magic toolkit with a plasma rifle.

Scarab Sages

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

I honestly suspect the answer is "no, not really," and part of that feeling is based on my depth of knowledge about the book you-all haven't gotten to see yet.

That said, I COULD be wrong. In a world with only spontaneous spellcasters, and technology that allows you to be effective even without class features, there may be an effective build that focuses on having more lower-level spells because there aren't preparation casters around to just prepare what you need. Especially someone willing to burn feats on longarms and longarm specialization (so offensive is not dependent on spells -- you could take Longarm proficiency at 1st and Weapon Specialization with it at 3rd), there could definitely be an interesting build in there, and it might be fun and/or effective (especially with the right group).

That said, that's a build that needs good Dex, Int, and Wisdom -- maintaining those are you level is easier in Starfinder than pathfinder, but you are still spread thinner than a single-class caster.

It'll help if you assume you shouldn't have any spells dependent on their save DC being high, which points back as a walking magic toolkit with a plasma rifle.

That actually sounds like a cool character to play :)


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From reading all the interviews I see no use for a dip in a mystic. You bring a magic middle to a fight and I'll bring a laser rifle. It's basically how I see modern day religion and technology. I have a phone that has endless knowledge yet I am supposed to go believe in a man in the sky.


Probably not very appealing. After all, spell levels aren't shared, only caster level. And spell levels are the more important part anyway.
Having two different spellcasting modifiers wouldn't help either.


If one goes for Utility spells it could still be very useful.
I think the deal is in comparisation actually quite decent


No its pretty terrible. Having access to higher level spells will always be considerably stronger than having a bunch of little ones. Bear in mind that as far as we know scrills and wands and such still exist in one form or another and having access to those basically obsoletes the build before we start.

Even going laser rifle for offense isnt much better as you sacrificed bab to multiclass. Not to mention access to class features that would further push you ahead.

Honestly if you just want utility than build around it. Technomamcer seems all about utility.


Every class has utility, having both caster classes just gives one character a bit more utility
and even if wands and stuff are still around, they are somewhat expensive

I don't think the build is obsolete, just a little harder to optimize

Scarab Sages

You only sacrifice bab if you go 10/10. 12/8 or 16/4 has full bab for a 3/4 class, assuming fractional bab isn't in the game.


Seisho wrote:

Every class has utility, having both caster classes just gives one character a bit more utility

and even if wands and stuff are still around, they are somewhat expensive

I don't think the build is obsolete, just a little harder to optimize

No, not really. Ill get more into the costs and benefits when im not on my phone but if you need compelling evidence on why this sort of build does not work well at all try building a magus/spritualist or a bard/summoner.

As far as single level dips go ill get into that later.


If spell slot progression stacked like in 5e then I'd be all over that shit. It's kinda why I don't want them to bring back 9th level casters, since that'd make it harder to homebrew slot progression stacking.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Time to go slightly off-topic. This sounds like a job for a space-mystic theurge! (Space-theurge? Techno-mystic? Help me out on the name.) We've seen absolutely no evidence of prestige classes in Starfinder (and, in my humble opinion, I hope it stays that way), but we can create a custom archetype to emulate that sweet sweet spell level synergy:

Archetype: Space-theurge

Spells per Day: At 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 9th class levels, a space-theurge gains new spells per day and new spells known as if he had gained a level in any one spellcasting class he already belonged to (in addition to any new spells per day and new spells known he gains for the class this archetype is attached to). He does not gain any other class features or abilities.

Combined Spells (Su): At 4th class level, a space-theurge may cast a 1st-level spell from one spell list in a 2nd-level (or higher) slot from his other casting class, or vice-versa, provided he has access to 2nd-level spell slots from the respective class. At 9th class level, he may prepare 2nd-level spells of one class in 3rd-level slots of the other in the same manner.

Spell Synthesis (Su): At 6th class level, a space-theurge can cast two spells, one from each of his spellcasting classes, using one action. Both of the spells must have the same casting time. Any target affected by both spells takes a -2 penalty on saves made against each spell. The space-theurge receives a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance with these two spells (if SR is a thing in Starfinder). A space-theurge may use this ability once per day at 6th class level and twice per day at 9th class level.

Some notes:


  • If you went Technomancer 10 / Mystic (space-theurge) 10, the bonus spell levels would kick in at character levels 12, 14, 16, and 19. This would give you access to 5th-level technomancer spells as well as 4th-level mystic spells by character level 20, at the cost of some mystic class features spells known.
  • I don't know if you can take the same archetype on two different classes, but if you could, that would give you access to 5th-level spells of both classes (but at what cost??).
  • Heck, you could take this archetype on a non-spellcasting class to squeeze out a few more spells per day, if you were multiclassing.
  • Since I have no idea what a full archetype looks like (or the class that abilities archetypes replace, for that matter) the balance of this is merely an educated guess. It could be gamebreaking or it could be garbage; all your opinions are valid.


Actually, casters give up spells known, not class features, when they gain archetype abilities. So the gain is probably worth more than the loss in this archetype.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The only "dip" that is made more attractive by the rules about caster level stacking would be a mystic dipping into technomancer or vice versa. Even for them, an even split is most likely rather unattractive. A 1-2 level dip, however, might be worthwhile in some cases.


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David knott 242 wrote:

The only "dip" that is made more attractive by the rules about caster level stacking would be a mystic dipping into technomancer or vice versa. Even for them, an even split is most likely rather unattractive. A 1-2 level dip, however, might be worthwhile in some cases.

Which is what I really should have stated at the start. I meant this sort of dip but foolishly used a bad stacking example and got my own thread off track from the start.


So to get back to what I was discussing before consider a 10/10 build at its earlier stages. In starfinder from what we understand that means 20th caster level which marginally handles one of the major issues with that kind o multiclassing.

However one of the biggest things it does is that it delays the progression of abilities and spell levels severely. So while level 20 technokid is out casting full on teleports and replacing the ship's built in AI with their consciousness for several levels now you're just now getting the ability to dimension door.

And what does this gain you spell wise?

Well normal progression for spells known would be 6/6/6/6/6/5/5.
10/10 progression would look like 12/10/10/8/4.

So you get about 4 more spells known overall through the 10/10 route. No 5th or 6th level spells. Keep in mind that though we've talked a lot about how certain spells will likely be lowered to ensure consistency so far evidence has proven few if any such spells will make such a change.

So do they cast more? At the moment we don't know. Mystic seems to defy the convention a bit by having more spells per day. So maybe you might end up with more casts? We'll have to wait and see.

In terms of utility do you have more or less going this route? Well you'd have more access to spell lists but lost access to higher class abilities out of both classes. Given we're talking about 3/4 casters that tends to mean they have a ton of abilities youll miss out on. Not to mention the scaling on lower level abilities. However losing roughly a tjird of your spell levels is harsh even moreso when you hive up over half.your oppurtinities to refine your spell list to a higher level by swapping out spells. Afterall its highly unlikely youll want the same spells at 15 as you will at 5.

To talk about jusr dipping a level or two what happens here is you trade late game power for early advantage. Higher saves, more skill choices, more abilities and spells, but lose out on early progression. Speaking from experience this can be devastating as classes tend to get certain capabilities, such as flight, problem solving options etc. right when youre expected to have them so choose your dipping point carefully. Howevsr when and if they release a more martial oriented caster its quite likely that well see strong dips that get heavy armor and long arm proficiency. But that will be long after core.


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Depending on how progression goes. I'd love to combine mechanic and technomancer someday.


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Zwordsman wrote:
Depending on how progression goes. I'd love to combine mechanic and technomancer someday.

Mechanic isn't a spellcaster, so this doesn't apply.

The only two spellcasting classes in Core are Mystic and Technomancer.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

...there may be an effective build that focuses on having more lower-level spells because there aren't preparation casters around to just prepare what you need. Especially someone willing to burn feats on longarms and longarm specialization (so offensive is not dependent on spells -- you could take Longarm proficiency at 1st and Weapon Specialization with it at 3rd), there could definitely be an interesting build in there, and it might be fun and/or effective (especially with the right group).

That said, that's a build that needs good Dex, Int, and Wisdom -- maintaining those are you level is easier in Starfinder than pathfinder, but you are still spread thinner than a single-class caster...

How deep is the CRB's selection of ranged splash weapons for non-soldiers? Could a dual-caster grab, say, heavy weapons proficiency at 1st (and specialization at 3rd) and rely on an RPG (the other kind) or a flamethrower to damage targets without needing a high Dex or investing in Str?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I doubt the technomancer or mystic start with long arm proficiency.
So this dualcaster would probably need to pick up long arm proficiency at first, then heavy weapon proficiency at third and finally specialization at fifth.

Edit: clicked on submit instead of preview damnit.

After investing those feats however they'd probably be decently able to damage targets, though you will have to invest a bit in strength to wield heavy weapons as far as I've understood those weapons.


Damanta wrote:

I doubt the technomancer or mystic start with long arm proficiency.

So this dualcaster would probably need to pick up long arm proficiency at first, then heavy weapon proficiency at third and finally specialization at fifth.

Edit: clicked on submit instead of preview damnit.

After investing those feats however they'd probably be decently able to damage targets, though you will have to invest a bit in strength to wield heavy weapons as far as I've understood those weapons.

They could be human to grab two feats at 1.


Well, I think the good news is, in the unlikely event your campaign goes into "epic levels" and the only viable solution you have for that is to multiclass, you at least have a way to ensure that deciding to remain a dedicated caster isn't a detriment.

A side note: Assuming a homebrew campaign on the "Pathdinder ports" side, (because of course we would, Starfinder has a lot of improvements in areas to want to use it's system instead of Pathfinder's) this would mean that in some miracle if you tried to build something like a Level 40 character with a Crossblooded Sorcerer/Blood Arcanist (Etc) combo to gain two Bloodline capstones... It would be semi-viable.

... As far as Level 40 Characters "can" be viable that is. I keep hearing that d20 games become hard to balance at high levels, and past level 20 it becomes impossible.

No clue as to how accurate that is. It's probably a discussion for elsewhere though.

What I do know... Is that if this were using Pathfinder's Spellpower progression (say, 1d6 per caster level, normal 20d6 maximum for like a 6th level spell), you could have possibly added... I think it was empower? So that if you got to character level 25 it would actually do something by increasing the maximum to 25d6. As opposed to nothing.

Weird that my point on how this effects gameplay amounts to "its good for when using the game in ways not intended".


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Damanta wrote:

I doubt the technomancer or mystic start with long arm proficiency.

So this dualcaster would probably need to pick up long arm proficiency at first, then heavy weapon proficiency at third and finally specialization at fifth.

Do we know what the feat tree looks like for weapon proficiencies and specializations? I assumed the different groups were treated like PF's simple, martial and weapon proficiency feats, which are all independent of one another, but it's certainly believable that SF, with more weapon groups, would do it differently.

According to the soldier class blogpost, the weapon groups are basic melee, advanced melee, small arms, grenades, long arms, sniper weapons, and heavy weapons. If there are any others, the soldier does not have proficiency.

We do know that the mystic's proficiencies are just basic melee and small arms, though, to confirm your doubts.


This isn't really on topic, but if I wanted to play a Technomancer who easily got weapon proficiencies could I just dip Soldier first, and then multiclass into Technomancer?

While dipping isn't ideal, it would enable me use the best weapons available.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Trees:
basic melee -> advanced melee
small arms -> long arms -> heavy weapon

Not sure if sniper weapons are in the tree somewhere though.


Damanta wrote:

Trees:

basic melee -> advanced melee
small arms -> long arms -> heavy weapon

Not sure if sniper weapons are in the tree somewhere though.

They are not. Owen mentioned that Sniper Rifles don't have a prerequisite. Also, there are Grenades as well that you can be proficient with.

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

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Claxon wrote:

This isn't really on topic, but if I wanted to play a Technomancer who easily got weapon proficiencies could I just dip Soldier first, and then multiclass into Technomancer?

While dipping isn't ideal, it would enable me use the best weapons available.

Yes... but.

Classes have an ability at 3rd level that gives you weapon specialization with all the weapons that class gave you proficiency with.

So, if you take 1 level of soldier, you are proficient with all the weapons--but you then won't pick up specialization with anything automatically until character level 4th, and when you do it won't include longarms, sniper weapons, and heavy weapons.

Now you CAN grab those with feats, but it's still not automatic.


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Remy P Gilbeau wrote:
Damanta wrote:

Trees:

basic melee -> advanced melee
small arms -> long arms -> heavy weapon

Not sure if sniper weapons are in the tree somewhere though.

They are not. Owen mentioned that Sniper Rifles don't have a prerequisite. Also, there are Grenades as well that you can be proficient with.

Well, good to know. Sounds like my Technomancer shouldn't have a problem with going Sniper, the way I played Spellslinger.

... That is... If I wasn't already thinking of dipping or just straight multi-classing into Operative anyways for certain... Stealth Benefits. Or really, just a broader set of skills in general. Sort of a futuristic Arcane Trickster Build.

Now if only there was a way to make Operative levels count for Caster levels... Like.. Say... An Archtype. I wonder if that's what Phrenic Adept does. (Probably too much to hope.)

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

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Luna Protege wrote:
Now if only there was a way to make Operative levels count for Caster levels... Like.. Say... An Archtype. I wonder if that's what Phrenic Adept does. (Probably too much to hope.)

Nope, that is not what phrenic adept does. :)


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What DOES it do? :P

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

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It makes you adept with phrenics!

It's a class that adds spell-like mental powers, better access to some Psychic Power feats, and gives you some unique mental abilities.


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Pretty cool, pretty cool. Though that makes it sound like it should increase caster level. :P

Scarab Sages

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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
It's a class that adds spell-like mental powers, better access to some Psychic Power feats, and gives you some unique mental abilities.

Does it make your name a killing word? :D

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

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doktorJung wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
It's a class that adds spell-like mental powers, better access to some Psychic Power feats, and gives you some unique mental abilities.
Does it make your name a killing word? :D

Not yet.


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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

It makes you adept with phrenics!

It's a class that adds spell-like mental powers, better access to some Psychic Power feats, and gives you some unique mental abilities.

If it adds "Spell-like mental powers", wouldn't the caster level for those abilities be that of the class the archetype its attached to?

Unless this is just a case of the new rules making a distinction between classes with Spell-like abilities and "Caster Classes".

Either way... I suddenly find myself remembering that Arcane Trickster was a thing in Pathfinder and wishing it was a thing here. I don't recall Prestige classes for Starfinder being discussed yet though. But that question could take up a thread of its own.


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I find the idea of not giving classes with spell-like abilities that are genuinely meant to be magical an actual caster level is silly to me. If mental powers are a form of magic, then Phrenic Adepts should have a caster level.

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

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All characters use their character level for their caster level for spell-like abilities, phrenic adept included.

Phrenic adept does NOT let you add your operative class levels to your caster level when multi classing into a spell casting class, which is what this thread is about, and thus the context of the question.

An operative 8 (phrenic adept)/mystic 2 using a phrenic adept spell-like ability has a caster level of 10th for that ability, since spell-like abilities are based on character level unless they say otherwise. Its caster level for mystic spells is 2nd. So the archetype does not let you use for operative level as part of your caster level for *spells* (which you only gain through multi classing), though they would count for the phrenic adept archetype.


IonutRO wrote:
I find the idea of not giving classes with spell-like abilities that are genuinely meant to be magical an actual caster level is silly to me. If mental powers are a form of magic, then Phrenic Adepts should have a caster level.

This doesn't particularly make sense to me. It's like arguing that gnomes should also have a scaling sorcerer (or whatever) level because of 'Gnome Magic.'

An adept isn't a class, they know how to use their frantically frenetic phrenic features fervently, but they don't pick up unrelated knowledge for free.

Lots of things get spell like abilities for a variety of reasons, but they aren't related to class progression.


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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

All characters use their character level for their caster level for spell-like abilities, phrenic adept included.

Phrenic adept does NOT let you add your operative class levels to your caster level when multi classing into a spell casting class, which is what this thread is about, and thus the context of the question.

An operative 8 (phrenic adept)/mystic 2 using a phrenic adept spell-like ability has a caster level of 10th for that ability, since spell-like abilities are based on character level unless they say otherwise. Its caster level for mystic spells is 2nd. So the archetype does not let you use for operative level as part of your caster level for *spells* (which you only gain through multi classing), though they would count for the phrenic adept archetype.

Sounds to me I could get hooked on Phrenics.

Scarab Sages

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Gilfalas wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

All characters use their character level for their caster level for spell-like abilities, phrenic adept included.

Phrenic adept does NOT let you add your operative class levels to your caster level when multi classing into a spell casting class, which is what this thread is about, and thus the context of the question.

An operative 8 (phrenic adept)/mystic 2 using a phrenic adept spell-like ability has a caster level of 10th for that ability, since spell-like abilities are based on character level unless they say otherwise. Its caster level for mystic spells is 2nd. So the archetype does not let you use for operative level as part of your caster level for *spells* (which you only gain through multi classing), though they would count for the phrenic adept archetype.

Sounds to me I could get hooked on Phrenics.

Planet of the Varana: Hooked on monkey prhenics.


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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

All characters use their character level for their caster level for spell-like abilities, phrenic adept included.

Phrenic adept does NOT let you add your operative class levels to your caster level when multi classing into a spell casting class, which is what this thread is about, and thus the context of the question.

An operative 8 (phrenic adept)/mystic 2 using a phrenic adept spell-like ability has a caster level of 10th for that ability, since spell-like abilities are based on character level unless they say otherwise. Its caster level for mystic spells is 2nd. So the archetype does not let you use for operative level as part of your caster level for *spells* (which you only gain through multi classing), though they would count for the phrenic adept archetype.

Cool, that clears up my confusion. I had no idea that spell-like abilities work like that now. That actually seems like a more "unified caster level" than the actual unified caster level of casters.

Weirdly enough, this sounds to me like something that makes dips into classes with spell-like abilities at low levels even more attractive than dips into Classes with Spells as a caster.

Or conversely that dipping into literally any class while having Phrenic Adept on your main class is going to be more attractive. Like in the example you just showed.

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

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Luna Protege wrote:
Or conversely that dipping into literally any class while having Phrenic Adept on your main class is going to be more attractive. Like in the example you just showed.

It SHOULD mean that a soldier/phrenic adept, who decides to multi class into mechanic (w/exocortex) does not feel this has ruined the phrenic adept archetype, which is after all supposed to work with the soldier class, which is as intended.

Designer

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Plus, while increasing caster level on your SLAs is handy in Starfinder, it's not the be-all-end-all that it was in Pathfinder where certain lower-level spells with high caster levels were just as powerful as higher level spells (or more), thanks to some nifty buffs to spells to make them better when you first get 'em. Ask level 1 Keskodai about that 2d10 mind thrust!


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

All characters use their character level for their caster level for spell-like abilities, phrenic adept included.

Phrenic adept does NOT let you add your operative class levels to your caster level when multi classing into a spell casting class, which is what this thread is about, and thus the context of the question.

An operative 8 (phrenic adept)/mystic 2 using a phrenic adept spell-like ability has a caster level of 10th for that ability, since spell-like abilities are based on character level unless they say otherwise. Its caster level for mystic spells is 2nd. So the archetype does not let you use for operative level as part of your caster level for *spells* (which you only gain through multi classing), though they would count for the phrenic adept archetype.

Why does one type of magic scale with character level while another scales with class level? Seems quite a needless and silly distinction.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
IonutRO wrote:
Why does one type of magic scale with character level while another scales with class level? Seems quite a needless and silly distinction.

Probably because class based magic (mystic or technomancer spells) should scale with spell caster class level because they are based on training in a certain magical method, while non-class based "magic" (phrenic adept psychic powers and whatever other spell like abilities exist) advance naturally as you gain experience/levels.

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

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Lots of things give you spell-like abilities without it being based on a class. Races. Feats. They generally represent innate abilities that happen to duplicate spells. As your total power level grows, so do your innate abilities. It's the same reason your ability score adjustments aren't tied to a class, and your maximum skill ranks aren't tied to a class. All these things are built of character level.

Spells that aren't spell-like abilities are almost exclusively available as a result of a class, which represents your mastery of that class. "Spells" are a learned skill, and spell casters are the ones who are good at it.

A 4th level soldier 2/envoy 2 has learned how to use their innate spell-like abilities, from any source, the same way they have learned skills and can have 4 ranks in a skill even if it is only a class skill from one of their classes.

A mystic2/technomancer 2 have 4 levels of expertise in casting spells, so they have caster level 4th.

A mystic 2/soldier 2 is just as good at their innate magic powers (spell-like abilities caster level 4th), but not as much experience with full, learned spells (spell caster level 2nd).

Not for nothing, this is also how a gnome's spell-like abilities work in Pathfinder. A gnome soldier 4 is caster level 4th with his racial spell-like abilities. A gnome soldier 2/wizard 2 is caster level 4th for his racial spell-like abilities, but caster level 2nd for his wizard spells.


I could easily see a house rule being scaling the caster level of each class you have levels in with your character level. What taking more levels in Mystic or Technomancer would get you is more spell slots and higher spell levels.

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