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Then they should really call it an eratta and not just stealthily reprint it.
I largely agree (although "stealthily" is probably a bit unkind). I can see the appeal of a hardcover compilation, but the original source should be errata'ed at the same time as the compilation is released. I know that would represent a change from issuing errata only with new printings, but it doesn't seem like it would be that much additional work (presumably they already know whenever they reprint something). After all, nothing says that errata has to be comprehensive with respect to the earlier work...they would only have to mention reprinted options which have been changed.
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Regarding the Lore Warden.
It has the same name.
And copied descriptive text.
And the same name for abilities.
Some abilities are the same. Some are modified.
And the same art.
Sounds like someone was pretty lazy and just copy pasted something else for their archetype then.
Until there's an official statement saying it's supposed to act as an errata to the original we shouldn't treat it as such in PFS that is just supposed to follow official statements and not make up rules.
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So "someone stole someone else's Archetype and tried to pass it off as their own" is what you're honestly going with?
You can't treat it as anything in PFS at all until the AR comes out.
Edit: ninjaed by Steven.
Since there's no support otherwise that does seem to be the logical outcome.
And I'm saying that PFS shouldn't treat it differently than Pathfinder which is that both are valid class choices and one isn't replacing the other.
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Since there's no support otherwise that does seem to be the logical outcome.So "someone stole someone else's Archetype and tried to pass it off as their own" is what you're honestly going with?
You can't treat it as anything in PFS at all until the AR comes out.
Edit: ninjaed by Steven.
*blink*
*blink*
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Since there's no support otherwise that does seem to be the logical outcome.So "someone stole someone else's Archetype and tried to pass it off as their own" is what you're honestly going with?
You can't treat it as anything in PFS at all until the AR comes out.
Edit: ninjaed by Steven.
*blink*
*blink*
Hey! You're not TOZ's Wandering Eye!
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Since there's no support otherwise that does seem to be the logical outcome.So "someone stole someone else's Archetype and tried to pass it off as their own" is what you're honestly going with?
You can't treat it as anything in PFS at all until the AR comes out.
Edit: ninjaed by Steven.
*blink*
*blink*
Do you have anything stating it's supposed to be a replacement and NOT following the normal rule that everything printed is intended in Pathfinder to be used as it?
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Whenever a class or archetype is fundamentally changed, I'd prefer to have that change presented as a complete unit (IE a reprint). If it were detailed as an errata, it would have looked something like this:
pg. 31, Replace the line "All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens." with the line "All Craft and Knowledge skills are class skills for lore wardens, as are Linguistics and Spellcraft."
pg. 31, Replace the "Expertise" ability with "Skill over Strength (EX)" which has the following qualities: "At 2nd level, a lore warden qualifies for feats and other abilities as though she had the Combat Expertise feat. At 6th level, she gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat, even if she would not normally qualify for the feat. If she already has Combat Expertise, she instead gains any one combat feat that includes Combat Expertise as a prerequisite (and for which she otherwise qualifies). At 10th level, she can treat her base attack bonus as though it were 2 higher for the purpose of calculating the effects of Combat Expertise. This ability replaces bravery and the fighter bonus feat gained at 2nd level."
pg. 31, Replace the "Maneuver Mastery" and "Know Thy Enemy" abilities with "Swords Secret (EX)" ability, which has the following qualities: "A lore warden learns specialized techniques that help her to quickly analyze and defeat her foes. At 3rd level, a lore warden gains one swords secret, and she gains an additional swords secret for every 4 fighter levels gained after 3rd. Except where noted, a lore warden cannot select the same swords secret more than once.
Exploit Weakness (Ex): The lore warden adds one-third her class level on attack rolls to confirm critical hits. At 11th level, whenever she confirms a critical hit, her weapon attacks ignore the first 5 points of damage reduction or hardness the target has until the end of her next turn. At 19th level, the lore warden can automatically confirm a critical hit once per round when she threatens a critical hit.
Hair’s Breadth (Ex): Once per day when subject to a critical hit, the lore warden can attempt an Acrobatics check to reduce the damage as an immediate action. If the result of this Acrobatics check is greater than the opponent’s confirmation roll, she negates the critical hit; the attack still hits and deals normal damage. The lore warden must be at least 11th level to select this swords secret. At 15th level she can use this secret one additional time per day.
Know Thy Enemy (Ex): When the lore warden succeeds at a Knowledge check to identify a creature’s abilities and weaknesses, she can also use a standard action to grant herself a +2 insight bonus on all attack and weapon damage rolls made against that enemy. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to half her class level (minimum 2 rounds), or until the lore warden uses this ability against a different creature. At 11th level, she also gains a +2 bonus to her AC against the creature when using this ability. At 19th level, the insight bonus increases to +3.
Maneuver Training (Ex): The lore warden gains a brawler’s maneuver training class feature, treating her fighter level as her brawler level.
Swift Assessment (Ex): The lore warden can now use her know thy enemy swords secret as a move action. At 15th level, she can use this ability as a swift action. She must have the know thy enemy swords secret before choosing this swords secret. This replaces armor training and armor mastery."
That's a ridiculous amount of errata to sift through. It's better presented as a revision to the archetype. Just like the unchained classes are not presented as errata (despite essentially being that).
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In that case, maybe in the book itself, there should have been the line "This archetype is an update to the Lore Warden archetype first printed the Pathfinder Society Field Guide."
Make things less confusing that way.
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Whenever a class or archetype is fundamentally changed, I'd prefer to have that change presented as a complete unit (IE a reprint). If it were detailed as an errata, it would have looked something like this:
...pg. 31, Replace the line "All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens." with the line "All Craft and Knowledge skills are class skills for lore wardens, as are Linguistics and Spellcraft."
pg. 31, Replace the "Expertise" ability with "Skill over Strength (EX)" which has the following qualities: "At 2nd level, a lore warden qualifies for feats and other abilities as though she had the Combat Expertise feat. At 6th level, she gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat, even if she would not normally qualify for the feat. If she already has Combat Expertise, she instead gains any one combat feat that includes Combat Expertise as a prerequisite (and for which she otherwise qualifies). At 10th level, she can treat her base attack bonus as though it were 2 higher for the purpose of calculating the effects of Combat Expertise. This ability replaces bravery and the fighter bonus feat gained at 2nd level."
pg. 31, Replace the "Maneuver Mastery" and "Know Thy Enemy" abilities with "Swords Secret (EX)" ability, which has the following qualities: "A lore warden learns specialized techniques that help her to quickly analyze and defeat her foes. At 3rd level, a lore warden gains one swords secret, and she gains an additional swords secret for every 4 fighter levels gained after 3rd. Except where noted, a lore warden cannot select the same swords secret more than once.
Exploit Weakness (Ex): The lore warden adds one-third her class level on attack rolls to confirm critical hits. At 11th level, whenever she confirms a critical hit, her weapon attacks ignore the first 5 points of damage reduction or hardness the target has until the end of her next turn. At 19th level, the lore warden
That's why you'd just look at the post errata version of the class and not try to piece it together, that's why PDFs are the best, and updated online sources are awesome.
But you see, you also missed one IMPORTANT detail "Whenever a class or archetype is fundamentally changed" NOTHING official indicates that they intend for this to be a replacement or big alteration and not just another new option for players to use.Get that, and there's a lot less issue to viewing this new archetype as an update to an older archetype. Errata happens and PFS needs to follow it. Getting a completely separate and new archetype that is very similar to an existing one it not something that PFS has any special plan set for.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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A large part of the book was James Jacobs going back and fixing things that didn't work out quite right.
The example I remember him talking about was Red Mantis Assassins using dexterity with their signature weapon. They're spindly things, not buff combatants.
Lore Warden ends up a lot like the Unchained Summoner. Both are technically options, but only one is still receiving official support.
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In that case, maybe in the book itself, there should have been the line "This archetype is an update to the Lore Warden archetype first printed the Pathfinder Society Field Guide."
Make things less confusing that way.
I guess I just don't need that line to see it for what it is: a book that consolidates and revises a ton of existing older character options, lore warden included.
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A large part of the book was James Jacobs going back and fixing things that didn't work out quite right.
The example I remember him talking about was Red Mantis Assassins using dexterity with their signature weapon. They're spindly things, not buff combatants.
Lore Warden ends up a lot like the Unchained Summoner. Both are technically options, but only one is still receiving official support.
Do you have any support to that? That only one lore warden is officially supported in the pathfinder game? That the new one is supposed to replace the old one? That seems to be the key piece that's missing from most people's view. ANY reason to assume it's supposed to invalidate the older archetype.
I guess I just don't need that line to see it for what it is: a book that consolidates and revises a ton of existing older character options, lore warden included.In that case, maybe in the book itself, there should have been the line "This archetype is an update to the Lore Warden archetype first printed the Pathfinder Society Field Guide."
Make things less confusing that way.
Not everyone looks at things from your point of view.
I think that it's better to be too obvious if you want something to be clear.
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I guess I just don't need that line to see it for what it is: a book that consolidates and revises a ton of existing older character options, lore warden included.In that case, maybe in the book itself, there should have been the line "This archetype is an update to the Lore Warden archetype first printed the Pathfinder Society Field Guide."
Make things less confusing that way.
Not everyone looks at things from your point of view.
I'm painfully aware of that.
I think that it's better to be too obvious if you want something to be clear.
If they had, this thread would be shorter :P
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I guess I just don't need that line to see it for what it is: a book that consolidates and revises a ton of existing older character options, lore warden included.In that case, maybe in the book itself, there should have been the line "This archetype is an update to the Lore Warden archetype first printed the Pathfinder Society Field Guide."
Make things less confusing that way.
Or maybe you're failing to see what it is because of what you think it is, for this book is: a book that has lots of material similar to older character options, lore warden included.
For that is what the book is. IF you want to view it as something more that's fine, but that's not what the book is currently. Without a statement saying that these are revisions to the classes, aka errata, then they aren't.
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If they plan to grandfather, I doubt we'll get forewarning.
...after the apparent legendry of the Assimar/Teefling 'factories', it's unlikely anything will ever get much forewarning again.
...which is a shame, because there are flavorful options out there that aren't overbalancing that fit those two races, but because it sounded like folks 'wanted a stockpile'...
Admittedly, the thought DID cross my mind last year when there was word of Tengu being considered for retirement.
And then I just changed my mind.
Rather than grind out a whole bunch of evergreens or whatnot, I'd just play the tengu I did have 'qualified' until they died off or retired, and when they were done, that'd be it for me in PFS if the rules didn't change back to allowing them.
Less fuss, less mess.
I probably wouldn't buy any new material in such a circumstance, and this 'Quantum Warden' situation has me on the bubble about buying the AG, when I *really* wanted to for the rivethune.
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I guess I just don't need that line to see it for what it is: a book that consolidates and revises a ton of existing older character options, lore warden included.In that case, maybe in the book itself, there should have been the line "This archetype is an update to the Lore Warden archetype first printed the Pathfinder Society Field Guide."
Make things less confusing that way.
Or maybe you're failing to see what it is because of what you think it is, for this book is: a book that has lots of material similar to older character options, lore warden included.
For that is what the book is. IF you want to view it as something more that's fine, but that's not what the book is currently. Without a statement saying that these are revisions to the classes, aka errata, then they aren't.
That is true. John hasn't confirmed that this book will replace anything. He commented it was a possibility, but nothing further.
There's a lot of debate over a hypothetical right now.
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@Wei Ji: The Adventurer's Guide is a dope book which has dozens of character options, items, spells, feats, etc. I'd recommend grabbing it if you like the Pathfinder lore and want to make a character that's designed around an established in-game organization. I have a hard copy myself.
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@Wei Ji: The Adventurer's Guide is a dope book which has dozens of character options, items, spells, feats, etc. I'd recommend grabbing it if you like the Pathfinder lore and want to make a character that's designed around an established in-game organization. I have a hard copy myself.
I'd *love* to, but I'm not going to reward a company for nerfing something else I spent money and effort on (finally starting a Lore Warden fighter, in this instance) without careful deliberation and cost/benefit analysis.
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The PFS team can certainly decide to keep both versions of the Lore Warden legal. Or the Ioun stone or whatever appears in the book. I think we all know that is pretty unlikely to happen. Currently, only the old versions are legal, so for PFS, nothing has changed until it does.
What evidence is there that the versions from the Adventurer's Guide will be used and replace the old ones? Well, for one, John Compton posted in this thread about that possibility (not the certainty, just that possibility).
We also know that John is listed as one of the authors of the book.
We also know that he has commented on why the power level of the resonant powers was adjusted.
Now, I don't own the book, so I'm not positive in which section these options appear, but since Lore Warden and resonant powers were from a PFS focused book originally, I'm going to guess that they appear in the Pathfinder Society section. Yes?
I also don't know what portions of the book John worked on, but I'm going to guess as the lead developer for Pathfinder Society, that even if he didn't write the options in the Pathfinder Society section himself, he was probably involved in developing them.
So knowing that one of the three people making the decision about what's going to be legal for PFS may have written or developed the new options and has commented that things might change, I'm going to feel pretty confident in believing that the versions in the Adventurer's Guide are how the PFS team wants these options to work going forward.
That does not mean that they won't grandfather any of the older versions in. They haven't done that with items in the past (that I'm aware of), but they have with classes (Summoner). I could see it happening with Lore Warden, since losing the bonus feat at 2nd level can easily cause someone's build to be illegal if the feat they chose was a prerequisite.
We won't know until the AR is updated, and we can continue to use the options as they originally appeared until the AR is updated. Convincing ourselves that all of the old options remaining legal is likely isn't really helpful, because it's extremely unlikely. Assuming that we're going to have to completely rebuild characters is also probably premature, because we don't know what the final ruling will be on grandfathering.
Much more productive, to me, would be making a succinct and civil case for why allowing grandfathering of the Lore Warden is the right choice. For me, that starts with many builds that currently use Lore Warden will become illegal if they are switched to the new Lore Warden, because they will lose a feat that may be a prerequisite for feats they have taken at higher levels.
(For the record, I do not have any Lore Warden levels on any of my characters).
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I'd prefer to let them rebuild to the new than be grandfathered. I don't like grandfathered classes. Races come and go and are boons so those I don't mind. But classes are something that'll never happen again, and it's a pain to have someone have a grandfathered summoner and then not play for 3 years and come back and have to explain that he's special and make sure the dates line up and everything.
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Second point in support of grandfathering for the Lore Warden... While is is a very strong dip for a level or two, I don't think it is anywhere near as overpowered as the APG Summoner is. The campaign has survived having some APG Summoners remaining legal. Lore Wardens aren't going to be too overpowered.
If grandfathering isn't allowed, and the new Lore Warden replaces the old one, there will almost certainly need to be some rebuilding allowed. See my point about the bonus feat above. If I used my bonus feat to help qualify for a prestige class, and I lose my bonus feat entirely, then I no longer qualify for that prestige class and may not have enough feat slots available to qualify just by swapping things around with retraining. So I would imagine some limited rebuilding would be part of it.
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@Wei Ji: The Adventurer's Guide is a dope book which has dozens of character options, items, spells, feats, etc. I'd recommend grabbing it if you like the Pathfinder lore and want to make a character that's designed around an established in-game organization. I have a hard copy myself.I'd *love* to, but I'm not going to reward a company for nerfing something else I spent money and effort on (finally starting a Lore Warden fighter, in this instance) without careful deliberation and cost/benefit analysis.
Such is your prerogative. There's a lot of fluff in the book as well, if you spend money on such things. The fluff > crunch is why I buy most things in hardback.
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So "someone stole someone else's Archetype and tried to pass it off as their own" is what you're honestly going with?
You can't treat it as anything in PFS at all until the AR comes out.
Edit: ninjaed by Steven.
Since there's no support otherwise that does seem to be the logical outcome.
And I'm saying that PFS shouldn't treat it differently than Pathfinder which is that both are valid class choices and one isn't replacing the other.
That's pretty spurious and disingenuous to declare that the most likely outcome.
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That's pretty spurious and disingenuous to declare that the most likely outcome.So "someone stole someone else's Archetype and tried to pass it off as their own" is what you're honestly going with?
You can't treat it as anything in PFS at all until the AR comes out.
Edit: ninjaed by Steven.
Since there's no support otherwise that does seem to be the logical outcome.
And I'm saying that PFS shouldn't treat it differently than Pathfinder which is that both are valid class choices and one isn't replacing the other.
I'm confused as to what you're saying.
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Such is your prerogative. There's a lot of fluff in the book as well, if you spend money on such things. The fluff > crunch is why I buy most things in hardback.
The most popular books are crunchy. Adventuerer's armory got a reprint AND a sequel.
In depth fluff just doesn't affect my characters at all. I know what hermea is from the inner sea world guide. I love the concept, but the diminishing returns on how its going to effect my character are staggering once you past a gazateer. Island of eugenics being run by a gold dragon generates ideas. I don't see how establishing that the national cuisine tends to be ecclectic does.
I don't need a guide book to write and sign off on backgrounds. I need a crunch book to write and sign off on mechanics i'd like to try out.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Such is your prerogative. There's a lot of fluff in the book as well, if you spend money on such things. The fluff > crunch is why I buy most things in hardback.The most popular books are crunchy. Adventuerer's armory got a reprint AND a sequel.
In depth fluff just doesn't affect my characters at all. I know what hermea is from the inner sea world guide. I love the concept, but the diminishing returns on how its going to effect my character are staggering once you past a gazateer. Island of eugenics being run by a gold dragon generates ideas. I don't see how establishing that the national cuisine tends to be ecclectic does.
I don't need a guide book to write and sign off on backgrounds. I need a crunch book to write and sign off on mechanics i'd like to try out.
I bought Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea World Guide and Inner Sea Faiths mostly for fluff. I liked the additional details they had about the world.
I borrowed a copy of Adventure's Guide and wasn't impressed. None of it excited me, especially since I already had several of the options via the smaller splatbooks. I'm going to go through it once more, but right now it isn't worth the price of a PDF to me.
Without some of that fluff, there would be no consistency in how the world was portrayed. I like that we know the Cult of the Dawnflower is exactly that, but Sarenrae (apparently) continues to grant those followers power. We also know she isn't happy with some of the things they have done.
To me, that is the sort of fluff worth paying for.
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I like the fluff in books. I don't always get a chance to read it all, but it's useful when putting characters together. Inner Sea Gods, in particular, had a lot of really great information.
The reason I likely won't buy this particular book for the fluff is that apparently a lot of it spoils several adventure paths that I haven't been able to play yet. So I'm afraid to read it.
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Without some of that fluff, there would be no consistency in how the world was portrayed.
Lets be honest about the level of consistency we're going to have here. A lot of things get ret conned. We're not at comics level yet but players aren't going to portray things consistantly even if you start on a consistent basis.
Two taldans character can have vastly different views on what their country is and what its doing without either one being badly played (or even wrong). Taldor could be an empire in decline where corrupt nobles extort the peasants with oppressive taxes or A land where the cream rises to the top so they can take arts, sciences, philosophy, and society to new heights depending on a characters point of view.
I like that we know the Cult of the Dawnflower is exactly that, but Sarenrae (apparently) continues to grant those followers power. We also know she isn't happy with some of the things they have done.
To me, that is the sort of fluff worth paying for.
Okay, but how many books can you publish about that? I think they were mentioned as such back in the inner sea world guide. I don't think much has changed about them... and thats a detail in the world that has come up repeatedly for one of the players here. His character is / was a hard line saranite that kept tangling with the cult of the dawn flower and wound up burning down more than a few churches*. They kept handing him applications to the point that the character hit a "your approval is filling me with shame"
Once you have a page or blurb on them.. what more is there?
I got inner sea races because i like weird races (and there was a perfect item for my kitsune oracle) ..but wow i was glad most of that was with a gift certificate. If each race got three sentences wort of new info would be shocked. There's more information/flavor in the blood of beasts worked into a few sentences of one prestige class about tengu than in the fluff book.
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Two taldans character can have vastly different views on what their country is and what its doing without either one being badly played (or even wrong). Taldor could be an empire in decline where corrupt nobles extort the peasants with oppressive taxes or A land where the cream rises to the top so they can take arts, sciences, philosophy, and society to new heights depending on a characters point of view.
That's not even a setting consistency issue...that happens in the real world all the time.
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I like crunchy books. I like fluffy books. I like books that are about Pathfinder. Inner Sea World Guide is my favorite book for flavor. Ultimate Equipment is my favorite book for crunch. Most others fall somewhere in between
Adventurer's Guide falls somewhere between, and is fairly evenly balanced with crunch and fluff. It's like a reboot of a film franchise. We get a lot of nods to previous APs and sourcebooks, and a lot of old character options got hit with the revision wand. I'm just happy to read more about the organizations, and am ecstatic that you can have a character that can ride a bear without undersize mount.
My lore warden is sad. My Tribal Scars barbarian is sad. Other concepts might be sad down the road. The rest of me is happy.
You may ask, why SeaBreeze are you joining if if you seemingly care so little? The answer is that this thread has affected the groups that I play with. Too looong.
Well, following your philosophy, if the group you play with let themselves to get affected by the tread...Let them stew...I guess they want to..
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Thing is, PFS making a rule isn't proving or showing PDT intent. So unless officially state otherwise we should assume the default, that both options are meant to be used in pathfinder. So I'm trying to get that point across to people that they should stop assuming it's meant to not follow the normal trend without any support for that position.
so the point is to persuade the PFS leadership though that unless they provide a PDT official statement they too should have no reason to remove the old version from play. Since their stated goal is that they don't just change things for PFS but follow the PDT rules, so this shouldn't be an exception.
SKR's statement last timet they reprinted a mystery with the same name in a different book that was largely the same as the original.
Because nothing in the second version says "this updates are replaces the version of the juju mystery that appeared in another book."
Both are valid.Nobody at Paizo is trying to take the first version away from your character. Nobody at Paizo cares that your character is using the first version. If your GM forcing you to change your character, that's a problem with your GM, not Paizo.
So this was the last word I'm aware of as to derive what their official view is. Thus if Paizo isn't trying to take away the first version then why should PFS? If Paizo is trying to take away the first this time, why not actually state that?
