I have been tossing around this idea in my head for a while about an Unchained Monk that VMC's magus. I wanted to hear people's thoughts on my logic and what they feel are the failings in general with the build.
Right out the gate, let me make it known that I know the biggest downside is the increased MAD due to now having to add INT as a concern. Because I am not a fan of min/maxed characters, this does not bother me, but whether it bothers me or not is not the purpose of this thread. It is to hear from others. I am just putting out there from the beginning the foreknowledge that this is known.
One of the greatest advantages I see is the Arcane pool in conjunction with the Ki Arcana Magus Arcana. You would not only gain a larger Ki pool, but you would also gain additional buffs that your pool could be used for. On top of this the ability to buff your weapons would seem to allow you to have +10 unarmed strikes in conjunction with an AoMF.
This is one of my concerns as first off there is question of not only the interplay between the two sources, but also about whether the magus buff would apply to the whole body of a monk. I would argue that the Esoteric Magus Archetype suggests the ability to do so already. I am not suggesting that the Esoteric arcane pool ability be used, I am just suggesting that it lends credence to the idea that it is possible; because monk unarmed strikes are treated as manufactured weapons.
I do know that the spell strike Magus skill will be completely wasted on a Monk unless you take an Arcana such as Pool Strike, but it still seems to me the advantages outweight the disadvantages. Arcana such as Accurate Strike seems perfect for overcoming issues with flurry of misses. Hasted Assault also seems to have its advantages for any class.
could and probably should go on, but please give me insights and opinions. I am trying to flesh the idea out.
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Flurry of misses isn't an issue for the unmonk. All of unchained flurry bonus hits are at full bab, and there is no built in TWF penalties. The feats that you've given up for the limited arcane pool could be used for building a style tree or other unarmed enhancements. I think it could be made to work, but it wouldn't be inherently better than a standard monk.
First, let's see how well VMC Magus combines with the best style feat chains:
- Dragon Style works just fine (since you only really need two feats).
- Ascetic Style works on a human but has to choose two out of three from Ascetic Form, Power Attack, and Extra Arcana.
- Tiger Style works on a human but it uses your 9th level feat.
- Jabbing Style is de facto impossible.
Dragon Style, Ascetic Style (with or without Ascetic Form), and armed without a style are all possible and do a lot of damage. Without human bonus feat, I suggest the last of the three because you'll want Extra Arcana as your 9th level feat. Scaled Fist with Dragon Style works really well, too.
Best arcanae (apart from the almost mandatory Ki Arcana) are probably Accurate Strike (for offense) and Flamboyant Arcana (for defense). Due to your low Int and swift action starvation, Hasted Assault can't compete with Boots of Speed.
With Ki Arcana, you don't actually need any Int.
With Accurate Strike, this is potentially the highest DPR unMonk style at higher levels (9+), especially if your GM allows you to fully (ab)use Ki Leech. Even before that it's far from bad.
Flurry of misses isn't an issue for the unmonk. All of unchained flurry bonus hits are at full bab, and there is no built in TWF penalties. The feats that you've given up for the limited arcane pool could be used for building a style tree or other unarmed enhancements. I think it could be made to work, but it wouldn't be inherently better than a standard monk.
Just want to clarify your last statement. Are you saying it would not be better than a standard monk or a standard unchained monk?
If one of the arcanas you choose is wand wielder, and you feel you can pump UMD, then you have added options for your Spellstrike.
Adding the Ghost Blade arcana could also be useful - add ghost touch or brilliant energy options when using your arcane pool. Ghost Touch specifically - not something I want on a weapon all the time, but when you need it you need it.
Wand Wielder is no good because the caster level is too low for damage spells, and the DC is too low for other spells.
With Ki Arcana and Ki Leech, Accurate Strike* is vastly superior to Brilliant Energy, but if you can't use either one of those for some reason, Ghost Blade becomes very interesting. Note that Brilliant Energy only becomes usable at 15th level, and that Ghost Touch can be imitated by Ghostseeker (which does eat your swift actions, though).
*) Plus using your Arcane Pool weapon enchantments for the Shock etc.
Reading through the responses, a headband of mental prowess with stats for Wis and Int and skills chosen to supplement your weaknesses would be very powerful for this type of character... It is of course a completely unrealistic idea unless you have a character in game that can custom make equipment, a very giving GM, or just plain insane luck.
On to other points. Style wise I am really leaning towards dragon style, as I love the extras (other than the damage) that you get from it.
I had written off the potential to use wands in this setup, but it at least warrants a second view. Not so much for damage dealing, but for supplementing survival.
I agree that Ki Leech is almost a requirement due to the vast ki amounts this character would require. I can not say I am a fan of the abuse style of ki leech, but there are ways to use it wisely to give your character that much more chance.
Ghost slayer would take up a feat in a very feat starved build, but I'm not personally feeling the Ghost Blade arcana either. Unless I was in a very undead heavy game.
Speaking of the lost feats, I think the increase ki arcana pool and the additional arcana can be arguably better than the feats you lose. Lets look at it logically. You are giving up 5 feats for 5 abilities. 1st ability is arcana pool. Ability to enhance your weapons a number of times per day. I can see that easily equal or better than a feat. Especially since the enhancement grows with your character and allows you to add different energy damages as desired. 2nd ability is an arcana. This would go to Ki arcana in my mind and is demonstrably better than a feat as extra ki is a feat and this basically adds extra ki that grows with your level. 3rd ability is spell strike that under normal circumstance is all but wasted on a non caster, so i do consider this a wasted feat. 4th is another ki arcana. Assuming you got accurate strike, you basically just got the ability to spend a few ki points to hit as touch for the rest of the round. I think alot of people would take a feat where you can attack as touch for the round. 5th ability is another arcana. Hasted assault is the ability to give yourself haste as a spell like ability. Alternatively flamboyant arcana, pool strike, familiar, and several other arcana all have amazing abilities.
Honestly the arcana I really wish could work was spell scars, but to the best of my knowledge it just doesn't work because the spells have to read as scrolls. Sad, but it probably would make someone too powerful.
You could do The Spiritualist Phantom Blade Archetype with secondary as UnMonk. Harbour your weapon and get a scaling black blade for your unarmed strikes that stacks with various AoMF bonuses (could go dex based with an Agile AoMF if desired to remove STR requirements). I'm not to experienced with VMC combos. But both are WIS based. Then spells for spell combat are far worse though and they are a spontaneous caster version so you can't apply metamagic in the same way.
To the best of my knowledge there is not a VMC for unchained monk that I have seen. Even taking the original monk, it would be possible to achieve what you were saying, but I was really trying to make a monk, and also I like the unchained monks ki abilities in the mix.
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Wand Wielder is no good because the caster level is too low for damage spells, and the DC is too low for other spells.
With Ki Arcana and Ki Leech, Accurate Strike* is vastly superior to Brilliant Energy, but if you can't use either one of those for some reason, Ghost Blade becomes very interesting. Note that Brilliant Energy only becomes usable at 15th level, and that Ghost Touch can be imitated by Ghostseeker (which does eat your swift actions, though).
*) Plus using your Arcane Pool weapon enchantments for the Shock etc.
Wand Wielder is good for wands of True Strike, which you use to hit maneuver checks with your first attack.
The problem is you cant flurry and spell combat at the same time, and Flurry is better than spell combat if you are forced to rely on wands.
I have to say I am liking the idea behind empowered blade magus arcana being used here. It doesn't add anything amazing to the build, but for two points instead of 1 your enhancements to your weapon last for a minute per magus level instead of just one minute. Higher cost up front, but less chance of having to renew it in combat. Grant you, at a minute you have 10 rounds already, so it is possibly wasted most of the time.
Reading through the responses, a headband of mental prowess with stats for Wis and Int and skills chosen to supplement your weaknesses would be very powerful for this type of character
What do you need int for? I mean, more skills are always welcome, but VMC Magus doesn't really gain much from Int. Let's say your 16th level with Int 10 and Wis 14+6, your combined pool has a capacity of 20. Would increasing that to 23 really be that noteable?
I can not say I am a fan of the abuse style of ki leech, but there are ways to use it wisely to give your character that much more chance.
Yeah, you don't need to abuse it (like coup de grace'ing an uncounscious enemy after a combat with a whip until your pool is full or he fails the DC10 fortitude save, dueling your teammates and hitting them with a whip, or punching squirrels). You could do nonlethal damage and CdG the unconscious enemies after combat, because that's not too bad a strategy anyway.
Remember that unlike Grit or Panache, Ki Leech doesn't have a HD minimum, so mooks grant ki, too.Speaking of the lost feats, I think the increase ki arcana pool and the additional arcana can be arguably better than the feats you lose.
Arcane pool would easily be worth multiple feats, and Accurate Strike is like a dozen Weapon Focus feats together.
Yes, you are severely feat starved, especially if you use your 9th level feat for Extra Arcana (which you really want to do!). You can't even grap Dragon Ferocity and Power Attack before 13th level on a non-human. But a Monk doesn't really need any feats (apart from Scaled Fist, who does have a feat to spare on Steadfast Personality).
Wand Wielder is good for wands of True Strike, which you use to hit maneuver checks with your first attack.
Didn't think about that - I guess it's an option if you really need to hit with a maneuver and yout GM doesn't allow Quicken Spell-Like Ability.
I have to say I am liking the idea behind empowered blade magus arcana being used here.
Even in the rare case that your combat lasts more than a minute, it's only a swift action to reactivate. The arcana isn't crap, but I would never pick it up before Ki Arcana, Accurate Strike, and Flamboyant Arcana.
Reading through the responses, a headband of mental prowess with stats for Wis and Int and skills chosen to supplement your weaknesses would be very powerful for this type of characterWhat do you need int for? I mean, more skills are always welcome, but VMC Magus doesn't really gain much from Int. Let's say your 16th level with Int 10 and Wis 14+6, your combined pool has a capacity of 20. Would increasing that to 23 really be that noteable?
Actually, the difference would likely only be 20 to 21 in that case. I am assuming you were referencing a headband of wis +6 in that scenario. The closest cost equivalent to that in the mental prowess +4 which would only net you an extra point in the pool.
Still having said that, there are two reasons that I can think of: First is the increased pool, which admittedly would be somewhat like a drop on the bucket compared to what you may already have. The secondary reason is that you can open up additional Arcana that rely on Int modifier to determine length of effect. To use the example you brought up before of Boots of Speed vs Hasted assault. Boots of speed can be used 10 rounds a day. Even if you only have a +1 int modifying, you could still potentially get more hasted rounds out of the hasted assault arcana than boots of speed. Mind you this is at the cost of activating the ability regularly, so it probably wouldn't really shine unless you had an int modifier of at least +2. Still with a mental prowess +4 like the scenarioI described it is possible.
Yeah, I was deliberately using Mental Prowess +6 in comparison to a Inspired Wisdom +6 for my example.
Boots of speed can be used 10 rounds a day.
Or you use the money you save on the headband to buy two of them. Boots of Speed do not have a "must be worn for 24 hours" clause.
Mind you this is at the cost of activating the ability regularly, so it probably wouldn't really shine unless you had an int modifier of at least +2.
The problem is that +2 is not enough to shine. It depends on your character and the enemy, but two rounds without Haste but with Accurate Strike can easily do more damage than two hasted rounds with only one of them with Accurate Strike. So it's only good if you can prebuff, and even then it's only one round of Haste per combat. Sorry, I just don't see how that could possibly be worth a feat/arcana and either a higher headband cost or lower wisdom.
That's not counting one-in-a-million stat rolls or imba raceial modifiers, obviously.
It is a trade off of build. By going the int headband route you could have the skill points in use magic device to use wands as discussed above, and also leave your boot slot open for something like winged boots. Not necessarily better, but potentially useful dependent on set up.
There are some downsides to the multiple speed boots plan too, but I could see how it would work, so I see it as slightly more viable.
I have considered the use of both Human and Oread for the character. I lean towards human because of the extra feat and i like the human favored class bonus, but with Oread, you get Str and Wis bonus, and using the mostly human racial trait still gives you the option to take the human favored class bonus. Additionally, wouldn't taking mostly human oread overcome the inherent weakness of the capstone ability and still allow you to be affected by things like enlarge person? I realize reaching capstone is unlikely in any game, but I wanted some clarification on this potential.