Fiendish template to demon creature?


Rules Questions

The Exchange

Is it within the rules to apply the Fiendish template to a demon? For example could I make a Nalfeshnee Fiendish in order to grant it the Smite Good ability?


Technically there is nothing to stop you, but as it is already a demon I think it's bad to do so.


Why not just grant it as much Smite Good as you like w/o resorting to templates? They're a convenient way to modify a monster, but far from mandatory.


you could to increase power a bit - but you'd have to disregard the CR+1 for higher HD creatures as they're only getting smite good


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A one-and-a-Half-Fiend?


Claxon wrote:
Technically there is nothing to stop you, but as it is already a demon I think it's bad to do so.

It could be interesting as some kind of dramatic supercharge thing. Basically, its function would be a boss that fills his minions with his fiendish energy to make them more of a threat. Kind of like something that would make animals into dire animals.

Anyway, to the main point- what is the smite good being used for in this situation? If you are just looking to give a quick bonus to attack (+5 for the noted demon), then just adding a level of antipaladin is enough. If the purpose if making HD to damage....then yeah, that is harder.

The Exchange

lemeres wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Technically there is nothing to stop you, but as it is already a demon I think it's bad to do so.

It could be interesting as some kind of dramatic supercharge thing. Basically, its function would be a boss that fills his minions with his fiendish energy to make them more of a threat. Kind of like something that would make animals into dire animals.

Anyway, to the main point- what is the smite good being used for in this situation? If you are just looking to give a quick bonus to attack (+5 for the noted demon), then just adding a level of antipaladin is enough. If the purpose if making HD to damage....then yeah, that is harder.

I am basically trying to take existing demons and make them more of a threat to good aligned PCs who have an AC of at least 47 vs. demons.


Well, if the extra damage is not the main issue, then antipaladin is absolutely a fantastic choice.

Getting a full BAB class level gives you a +1, and you have a +5 Cha, so that means they are hitting with a +6 afterwards. Also, they get a slight boost to health and most saves. The fact that it is 1/day doesn't really matter, since they are generally expected to die in the first fight anyway.

Add some nets too. They target touch AC (which tends to be so bad that you get it, even with a -4 from not being proficient). Nets gives a total of -2 to both attacks and AC (later is due to a -4 dex loss). Outflank also gives a +4 to attack (also, it has some nasty effects on concentration checks).

Altogether, just a level, a piece of equipment, and a switched out feat can give you a +12. That is enough to get you to decent 50/50 range with natural attacks. Further patch that up with some buffs (maybe a bard or skald level on one?) and it will work out fine.

And it could be thematic too. This type of demon is well known for keeping a kind of 'order' in the abyss. Having them use group tactics and tools fitting something like a slave trader seems perfect.


I find it kind of redundant. As others said you have many tools to make those demons more equal-challenging. Demonic equipment, class levels, extra powers because 'I am the GM and nothing prevents me to add/remove powers from the monsters'.

Btw how do they got that insane amount of AC?


AS the GM you can pretty much do whatever you want, but there are probably better ways to boost a demon than granting it a redundant template. Instead of trying to boos up a creatures abilities so it come overcome a characters strong point attack them on their weak point. If the players AC are too high find a way to attack them that does not target AC.

Nalfeshnee have fly and have several at will spell like abilities including call lightning, feeblemend, greater dispel magic and slow. Are you using these abilities? Start out with a greater dispel magic using the area this may bring down the players AC without having to add any abilities to the demon.

Instead of attacking them based on AC use combat maneuvers. Nalfeshnee have improved bull rush which may not be all that good. Instead of giving a template simply change that to another feat. Improved sunder could allow it to destroy magic items. Another option would be to give it improved grapple but that would mean also giving it improved unarmed strike which is still less than giving it a template. If your players CMD is not as high as their AC this will allow them to be grappled.


Keldan Marr wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Technically there is nothing to stop you, but as it is already a demon I think it's bad to do so.

It could be interesting as some kind of dramatic supercharge thing. Basically, its function would be a boss that fills his minions with his fiendish energy to make them more of a threat. Kind of like something that would make animals into dire animals.

Anyway, to the main point- what is the smite good being used for in this situation? If you are just looking to give a quick bonus to attack (+5 for the noted demon), then just adding a level of antipaladin is enough. If the purpose if making HD to damage....then yeah, that is harder.

I am basically trying to take existing demons and make them more of a threat to good aligned PCs who have an AC of at least 47 vs. demons.

Stop attacking them where they're strong.

If they have high AC, target them with affects that use touch AC. If they have good touch AC target their bad saves.

They have to have a weak point, every character does.

And for another thing, what level of characters are we talking? It's hard to achieve an AC that high and still have much of a credible offense left (but not impossible). You really have to focus on defense so much that the character probably isn't much of an offensive threat. Unlike MMOs with threat generating tanks and so fourth, as a GM you are allowed to play intelligent opponents intelligently. If an NPC could have knowledge that the tanky character doesn't deal much damage, then the NPC can ignore the difficult to injure tank and work on killing the rest of the party, saving the tank for last.

In any event, stop trying to challenge PCs by attacking what they're good at.

Consider having something cast the spell Armor Lock on the target if the PC is wearing full-plate. It's great for basically removing the PC from the fight because it's basically a save and lose spell. On a failed save the PC is staggered, but even on a successful save the full-plate wearing PC is entangled. Most characters in full plate will have a movement speed of 20ft, and entangled will reduce that to 10ft along with a host of other penalties.

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