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Along the same lines at the rogue 1.5 post I will put my cards on the table to be attacked.
Change 1: Lose the Ki Pool. Anything based off of Ki points is instead times per day = Wisdom Modifier. For things requiring 2 ki point it would times per day = 1/2 Wisdom Modifier.
Less bookkeeping at the table, kind of a nerf and kind of not if you think about it.
Change 2: At 4th level and every 4 levels after gain an additional ability point to a physical stat (Str/Dex/Con). This makes perfect sense with the concept of the class being to achieve physical perfection, and addressed the MAD issue.
Change 3: Add the ability to enchant your body as a living weapon with the same features available to magic weapons at a cost of double enchanting a magical weapon. Cap the max enchantment at 1/2 your monk level rounded down. Cost would be incense and herbs used and consumed in the meditation ritual.
Thoughts? Gunslinger next if this one gets decent feedback.
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Change 1 is intriguing and I like it, Change 2 is in my opinion unnecessary. Change 3 I like, but I don't agree that it should be double the cost. Make it +1 - 2000 and on as such. The reason an Amulet of Mighty Fists costs so much is because it applies to natural weapons, and this would not; at the very least it would require some fancy multiclassing.
The biggest problem with the monk is that their two most iconic (in my opinion, mind you) abilities do not have synergy. Fast Movement and Flurry of Blows need a way to act together, so I'd recommend the ability to move half speed and still full attack. Make it Wisdom+3 times per day if you want to continue with the Ki pool pattern.
Change 1 is intriguing and I like it, Change 2 is in my opinion unnecessary. Change 3 I like, but I don't agree that it should be double the cost. Make it +1 - 2000 and on as such. The reason an Amulet of Mighty Fists costs so much is because it applies to natural weapons, and this would not; at the very least it would require some fancy multiclassing.
The biggest problem with the monk is that their two most iconic (in my opinion, mind you) abilities do not have synergy. Fast Movement and Flurry of Blows need a way to act together, so I'd recommend the ability to move half speed and still full attack. Make it Wisdom+3 times per day if you want to continue with the Ki pool pattern.
I like this concept, mobility is even called out as one of their strengths in their description.
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Lets say you're 20th level. You don't like to depend on gear, so you've got a lot of personal enchantments. You're adventuring with a party. Your party gets hit with disjunction. Will you regear as quickly as your party?
Good question.
1. It will be much harder for such things to work on monks, considering the ridiculous will saves monks have.
2. I don't see why it wouldn't act any differently than a fighter's sword or (god forbid) a wizards arcane bonded item.
You aren't going to have a lot of personal enchantments, you are going to be able to enchant your entire body as if it were itself a weapon.
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Change 1 is intriguing and I like it, Change 2 is in my opinion unnecessary. Change 3 I like, but I don't agree that it should be double the cost. Make it +1 - 2000 and on as such. The reason an Amulet of Mighty Fists costs so much is because it applies to natural weapons, and this would not; at the very least it would require some fancy multiclassing.
The biggest problem with the monk is that their two most iconic (in my opinion, mind you) abilities do not have synergy. Fast Movement and Flurry of Blows need a way to act together, so I'd recommend the ability to move half speed and still full attack. Make it Wisdom+3 times per day if you want to continue with the Ki pool pattern.
You have to remember than a monk is functionally able to attack with any part of their body when they fight. Not making it double cost is basically letting them have multiple weapons enchanted for the price of one weapon.
The two weapon fighter has to pay for two weapons, so should the monk. That being said, this fixes the "Amulet of Mighty Fist" slot at +5 cap issue.
As to the other part, I don't have as much of an issue with them lacking synergy, as they could be a bit overpowered if they had synergy.
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I disagree and think double is arbitrary and too much. Furthermore, it is not overpowered to be able to say "I punch the guy and then headbutt him." That's no different than a fighter describing two ways in which he attacks with his greatsword.
The ability to attack with any part of the monk's body is, in my opinion, more flavour than actual mechanical benefit. If you can think of a way in which it could be exploited, let me know.
Consider also that the Arcane Duelist can enchant his weapon of choice for half the cost, because of arcane bond. I don't think this is any less a class feature, and should probably have similar benefit. Not half the cost, but enchanting at cost is reasonable and would stop me from just making an armed monk every time.
As for giving a class synergy, yes, their abilities should work together. We're trying to fix a class, so we should start by trying to make them AS GOOD as the paladins, barbarians, druids and fighters as a whole class. There are already classes that gain the pounce ability, so I don't think the ability to move half speed and full attack as a full round action is uncalled for, especially if it's only a limited number of times per day.
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You have to remember than a monk is functionally able to attack with any part of their body when they fight. Not making it double cost is basically letting them have multiple weapons enchanted for the price of one weapon.Remember, a monk is able to use a single weapon during flurry of blows and still get the full number of attacks.
Agreed. If I had to pay double to enchant my fists, I would still go with a weapon. One more suggestion to bring them up to power actually, is to let a monk be proficient with one extra monk weapon of his choice.
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You have to remember than a monk is functionally able to attack with any part of their body when they fight. Not making it double cost is basically letting them have multiple weapons enchanted for the price of one weapon.Remember, a monk is able to use a single weapon during flurry of blows and still get the full number of attacks.
Yes. And some may choose to do that and not get the additional unarmed damage, or have an undisarmabe, unsunderable weapon.
We agree to disagree on that specific point.
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A monk uses one weapon when he uses flurry - his body.
If we treat flurry as two weapons, we are just asjustified in treatin it as four or sixteen or ten thousand. We've got two fists, two feet, two hips, two elbows, two knees, ten fingers, etc.
Yes, but he gets the benefits of two weapons. This has been a concern Sean expressed and the reaon amulet of mighty fist is so expensive. I would be ok with it, but I don't see it getting through the devs so I am proposing a comprimise I think could get through.
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I am of the opinion that because we are trying to 'fix' a class, going a little overboard is probably what we want to do. If we make the monk a great (the best?) choice for a player, then we can let the developers then nerf the abilities a little bit so that we're back to a basic balance.
If we're going to let the monk have something which is, in my opinion, comparable to an arcane bond, it should be at least be no more expensive than enhancing a melee weapon.
Mostly good suggestions, though the pricing for the enchantments would need to be examined thoroughly, as would figuring out how to deal with the cost of replacing them. I also think the biggest problem is lack of synergy among the abilities, as it confuses people on precisely what the class is supposed to do. I would personally suggest moving flurry of blows to an archetype, and giving the main class the dodge, mobility, and spring attack feats, as well as the other feats in that line from the later books, automatically at appropriate levels. I could see reducing the number of other bonus feats if needed, but this would give the class a focus that it currently lacks.
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I think there's only two fixes required for the Monk:
(1) Allow a Monk to use 1 Ki point, as a swift action, to use a flurry as a standard action.
(2) Full BAB, all the time. 3/4 BAB insults martial artists everywhere.
Along the same lines at the rogue 1.5 post I will put my cards on the table to be attacked.
Change 1: Lose the Ki Pool. Anything based off of Ki points is instead times per day = Wisdom Modifier. For things requiring 2 ki point it would times per day = 1/2 Wisdom Modifier.
Less bookkeeping at the table, kind of a nerf and kind of not if you think about it.
Change 2: At 4th level and every 4 levels after gain an additional ability point to a physical stat (Str/Dex/Con). This makes perfect sense with the concept of the class being to achieve physical perfection, and addressed the MAD issue.
Change 3: Add the ability to enchant your body as a living weapon with the same features available to magic weapons at a cost of double enchanting a magical weapon. Cap the max enchantment at 1/2 your monk level rounded down. Cost would be incense and herbs used and consumed in the meditation ritual.
Thoughts? Gunslinger next if this one gets decent feedback.
I think the monk is a lot better now, but it is still too darn expensive. Bracers of armor and Amulets of Mighty Fist will break the bank.
In short there is still work to be done. I will try to post ideas for a nonsupernatural martial artist as well.|
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Along the same lines at the rogue 1.5 post I will put my cards on the table to be attacked.
Change 1: Lose the Ki Pool. Anything based off of Ki points is instead times per day = Wisdom Modifier. For things requiring 2 ki point it would times per day = 1/2 Wisdom Modifier.
Less bookkeeping at the table, kind of a nerf and kind of not if you think about it.
Change 2: At 4th level and every 4 levels after gain an additional ability point to a physical stat (Str/Dex/Con). This makes perfect sense with the concept of the class being to achieve physical perfection, and addressed the MAD issue.
Change 3: Add the ability to enchant your body as a living weapon with the same features available to magic weapons at a cost of double enchanting a magical weapon. Cap the max enchantment at 1/2 your monk level rounded down. Cost would be incense and herbs used and consumed in the meditation ritual.
Thoughts? Gunslinger next if this one gets decent feedback.
I think the monk is a lot better now, but it is still too darn expensive. Bracers of armor and Amulets of Mighty Fist will break the bank.
In short there is still work to be done. I will try to post ideas for a nonsupernatural martial artist as well.
But you don't have to pay for real armor. I think it works about even.
But again, you have to sell the Devs, not me. I'm just hoping to throw ideas against the wall hoping some of them end up in the game.
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I think there's only two fixes required for the Monk:
(1) Allow a Monk to use 1 Ki point, as a swift action, to use a flurry as a standard action.
(2) Full BAB, all the time. 3/4 BAB insults martial artists everywhere.Oh I could think of a few more, though those may be better handled by feats.
This gets my +1 that's for sure.
Also as a note, that standard action Flurry is quite a beautiful contrast to Pounce. Where a Pounce is a straight line rush, a standard action flurry is a more calculated approach.
Oh, one last idea. Make the Ki point 'extra attack' option include the attack in the swift action used for Ki Point expenditure. In that way, a monk who charges or double-moves can potentially get one more attack than he normally would (but it's still a lot less firepower than pounce. And it actually makes Spring Attack somewhat viable for a Monk.)
If the pounce does not combine with flurry and it stays 3/4, I could be ok with it as a very specific, intensive, progression.
I don't agree at all with the full BaB. I think there is a lot of call for full BaB and I generally think it is a bad idea, as it eats into the Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Cavaliers territory, leading to power creep.
The monk doesn't need to be full BaB if they are better able to enhance their primary weapon.
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Rogues can 'better enhance their primary weapon' as well, doesn't put them on par with martial classes like Fighters and Monks.
Notice how you didn't even change flurry, monks are still a nebulous 'kind of' full BAB class. If a Monk is supposed to be mobile, restricting him to only having full BAB when he's not really hurts your case.
Which is why I proposed the way to enhance a monks body. A twf rogue has to enhance two weapons and can't pounce.
Currently, if I am not mistaken, only a very specialized barbarian class can pounce.
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Druids and Synthesist Summoners too
Both being 3/4 BaB classes, and both receiving it as a function of an alternate form.
The druid, I believe, would lose the ability to use weapons in all of the forms that allow pounce.
The Synthesist...man there are so many discussion boards about that class and that archetype...but again, at root that is still a 3/4 BaB class and pounce is only available to quadrupeds which adds a whole other line of questions for the archetype...that errata/faq is going to be interesting...
As I said, after consideration a case could be made for allowing it for the base attacks as part of a substantial feat chain. But combining it with flurry is a bridge to far for me, as it effectively makes positioning for flurry pointless and combined with monks high movement and ability to add stunning fist to the first attack you end up with a bit more than I think is appropriate.
As it stands now, the standard move is to charge with a stunning fist, if it works you are positioned with a flurry next round before the enemy can act. If not, you still did damage as any other class would charging an enemy.
I can see Druids, Rogues and the like having 3/4 BAB, because their "career" isn't one that's focused on physical combat. The monk, however, is a student of the martial arts, and dedicates years of training to the art and science of physical combat. The monk is at least as focused on combat as the Paladin or Ranger, if not more.
1/1 BAB is for those who are highly trained combatants.
3/4 BAB is for the "part-time" combatants.
1/2 BAB is for those who wrinkle their nose at physical combat.
I've always considered reasonable consistency first, and balance second, when designing anything.
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I can see Druids, Rogues and the like having 3/4 BAB, because their "career" isn't one that's focused on physical combat. The monk, however, is a student of the martial arts, and dedicates years of training to the art and science of physical combat. The monk is at least as focused on combat as the Paladin or Ranger, if not more.
1/1 BAB is for those who are highly trained combatants.
3/4 BAB is for the "part-time" combatants.
1/2 BAB is for those who wrinkle their nose at physical combat.I've always considered reasonable consistency first, and balance second, when designing anything.
The Monk does get full BAB for their specialties - Flurry of Blows and Combat Maneuvers. I think it's a fair compromise.
I would like to see something done about their MAD dependency however. They are impractical at 15 point buy, awkward at 20 point and useable at 25. Giving them an option to use Wisdom towards attack or damage would be useful - understanding how your opponent is moving and how to best use that against them etc.
Look at suggestion 2 in the OP.
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I can see Druids, Rogues and the like having 3/4 BAB, because their "career" isn't one that's focused on physical combat. The monk, however, is a student of the martial arts, and dedicates years of training to the art and science of physical combat. The monk is at least as focused on combat as the Paladin or Ranger, if not more.
1/1 BAB is for those who are highly trained combatants.
3/4 BAB is for the "part-time" combatants.
1/2 BAB is for those who wrinkle their nose at physical combat.I've always considered reasonable consistency first, and balance second, when designing anything.
The Monk does get full BAB for their specialties - Flurry of Blows and Combat Maneuvers. I think it's a fair compromise.
I would like to see something done about their MAD dependency however. They are impractical at 15 point buy, awkward at 20 point and useable at 25. Giving them an option to use Wisdom towards attack or damage would be useful - understanding how your opponent is moving and how to best use that against them etc.
I think it's time we got past the 'monks should only be good at combat while flurrying' mentality. Give them full BAB, give them x/day powers, and that's probably all you need to do.
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I can see Druids, Rogues and the like having 3/4 BAB, because their "career" isn't one that's focused on physical combat. The monk, however, is a student of the martial arts, and dedicates years of training to the art and science of physical combat. The monk is at least as focused on combat as the Paladin or Ranger, if not more.
1/1 BAB is for those who are highly trained combatants.
3/4 BAB is for the "part-time" combatants.
1/2 BAB is for those who wrinkle their nose at physical combat.I've always considered reasonable consistency first, and balance second, when designing anything.
The Monk does get full BAB for their specialties - Flurry of Blows and Combat Maneuvers. I think it's a fair compromise.
I would like to see something done about their MAD dependency however. They are impractical at 15 point buy, awkward at 20 point and useable at 25. Giving them an option to use Wisdom towards attack or damage would be useful - understanding how your opponent is moving and how to best use that against them etc.
If you give the monk full BaB, then you need to take away something or they outshine the existing Full BaB classes.
Currently the monk has all good saves, bonus feats that don’t require perquisites, free two weapon fighting chain, fast movement, immunities to disease and poison, evasion, slow fall (or a better swap out with qinggong), stunning fist, spell resistance, etc…
The monk isn’t full BaB because they don’t focus specifically on fighting as much as they focus on achieving physical perfection. This is why I think they need to add the bonus to physical stats but don’t need to be full BaB for anything but flurry.
As a compromise, I would have no real objection to them being able to specialize in a single weapon (or unarmed) and have them have full BaB with that single weapon. But people underestimate the value of full BaB.
... at high levels, when the difference matters more.
The Monk will never outshine the other martial classes, even if it had full BAB. The monk still can't keep up, offense-wise, with the damage boosting abilities of the other warrior classes. Further, Paladins and Rangers can cast spells, which is still better than the Monk abilities.
The Paladin is actually the best comparison to the Monk - both are devout in their own way, and divide their attention among martial arts and philosophical or spiritual pursuits. Both get a fistful of resistances and immunities, both get unique abilities. Both are MAD, benefiting from almost all the stats (though the Monk can dump CHA), which actually holds them both back from specializing, thus harming their focus in contributing or competing in the game.
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... at high levels, when the difference matters more.
The Monk will never outshine the other martial classes, even if it had full BAB. The monk still can't keep up, offense-wise, with the damage boosting abilities of the other warrior classes. Further, Paladins and Rangers can cast spells, which is still better than the Monk abilities.
Favoured Enemy > Flurry of Blows
Smite Evil > Flurry of BlowsPaladins have better saves than Monks, can outdamage them, can heal themselves as swift actions, get a bonded mount, and can cast spells and use wands of cure light wounds.
Monks would not be unbalanced with full BAB.
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... at high levels, when the difference matters more.
The Monk will never outshine the other martial classes, even if it had full BAB. The monk still can't keep up, offense-wise, with the damage boosting abilities of the other warrior classes. Further, Paladins and Rangers can cast spells, which is still better than the Monk abilities.
Favoured Enemy > Flurry of Blows
Smite Evil > Flurry of BlowsPaladins have better saves than Monks, can outdamage them, can heal themselves as swift actions, get a bonded mount, and can cast spells and use wands of cure light wounds.
Monks would not be unbalanced with full BAB.
And so the derailing of the thread begins...
Fast movement starts at 3rd level, the bonus feats start at first level.
Favored enemy only works against favored enemies. Flurry works all the time. Smite is times per day, Flurry works all the time.
Monks can self heal as well.
You are not going to convince me that BaB should be added. If you want to keep trying, please take it to one of the hundreds of other monk threads or start your own.
That is a non-starter here. The first class I took to high levels was a 3.5 monk, I have played the class a great deal, it doesn't need to be full BaB, and making it full BaB in the hands of a good player would overshadow the other martial classes.
If you want to discuss what is on the table, or propose other solutions, feel free.
But lets cut the derail, please.
Giving them an option to use Wisdom towards attack or damage would be useful - understanding how your opponent is moving and how to best use that against them etc.
I let them use it for attack and damage on attack rolls. It works out quiet well.
Ciretose, it is my belief that many peonple don't know how to play a monk. They keep trying to play it like a martial character. Perhaps a thread dedicated to improving the monk should start with discussing optimizing the use of what's already there.
I agree. Building a good monk and playing one well are difficult. That is one thing I never liked about them. They make new guys want to play them, but a new player is the last that should be trying it.
I disagree and think double is arbitrary and too much. Furthermore, it is not overpowered to be able to say "I punch the guy and then headbutt him." That's no different than a fighter describing two ways in which he attacks with his greatsword.
The ability to attack with any part of the monk's body is, in my opinion, more flavour than actual mechanical benefit. If you can think of a way in which it could be exploited, let me know.
Consider also that the Arcane Duelist can enchant his weapon of choice for half the cost, because of arcane bond. I don't think this is any less a class feature, and should probably have similar benefit. Not half the cost, but enchanting at cost is reasonable and would stop me from just making an armed monk every time.
As for giving a class synergy, yes, their abilities should work together. We're trying to fix a class, so we should start by trying to make them AS GOOD as the paladins, barbarians, druids and fighters as a whole class. There are already classes that gain the pounce ability, so I don't think the ability to move half speed and full attack as a full round action is uncalled for, especially if it's only a limited number of times per day.
Normally speaking, if you have natural weapons you get one attack per limb (kick, kick, claw, sword) or what have you.
If your GM interprets the Monk's ability to fight with any part of their body as overriding the "1 attack per limb" limit, then taking two levels of shape-shifting Ranger and taking the dragon bloodline feats, then swapping out flurry of blows for, say, the master of many styles archetype, means you can get all your unarmed strikes plus 4 claw attacks (hands and feet).
There's a guide I saw once (can't remember the name) that showed how making a monk who focused on strength instead of wisdom gave you a monk with two less ac who did more damage than most fighters at high levels (they add their full Strength bonus to all attacks and have no off-hand weapon, making their two-weapon fighting mechanically superior to a two-weapon fighters and they don't have to spend feats or points for 19 dex to get two-weapon fighting.) I think people put too much emphasis on wisdom/the MAD is to keep people from always dumping everything in strength.
Yeah, Monks are not beginner friendly, but especially with a good player and multiple archetype choices they can get really dangerous if you know what you're doing.
As for changes, what I wish is they'd just change things to make them less of an exception. All of the monk's biggest abilities seem to be re-writing rules for monks vs the way it works for everyone else. (flurry of blows vs two-weapon fighting, we had a huge thread on that before, plus there are others.)
Ciretose, it is my belief that many peonple don't know how to play a monk. They keep trying to play it like a martial character. Perhaps a thread dedicated to improving the monk should start with discussing optimizing the use of what's already there.I agree. Building a good monk and playing one well are difficult. That is one thing I never liked about them. They make new guys want to play them, but a new player is the last that should be trying it.
That is the main reason I suggested putting flurry of blows in an archetype, and making the core class a pure skirmisher. That makes it easier to build characters on paper that will be much closer to how they will play. The problem with optimizing what is already there is that there is too much there that conflicts to know what to optimize, and what abilities you have to effectively ignore when you do choose to optimize any given thing.
That is the main reason I suggested putting flurry of blows in an archetype, and making the core class a pure skirmisher. That makes it easier to build characters on paper that will be much closer to how they will play. The problem with optimizing what is already there is that there is too much there that conflicts to know what to optimize, and what abilities you have to effectively ignore when you do choose to optimize any given thing.A pure skirmisher would (and should) best be built with the fighter class.
There is no point in trying to turn the monk into an unarmed fighter.
He still wouldn't be an unarmed fighter, as he would still have all of the out of combat stuff a fighter does not have, as well as completely different combat abilities and focuses. What would be fixed would be the fact that his combat role would be much clearer than it is now. Considering that most people effectively do this anyway, it wouldn't be that big of a change for those who already play monks.
Other than flurry, what do you think conlicts with other stuff in the monk class?
The problem with optimizing what is already there is that there is too much there that conflicts to know what to optimize, and what abilities you have to effectively ignore when you do choose to optimize any given thing.
Nothing really, but flurry conflicts with most everything else, and while you may discount it as not being the only ability, it is still the first ability most people see. Therefore, it causes problems.
Nothing really, but flurry conflicts with most everything else, and while you may discount it as not being the only ability, it is still the first ability most people see. Therefore, it causes problems.Other than flurry, what do you think conlicts with other stuff in the monk class?
The problem with optimizing what is already there is that there is too much there that conflicts to know what to optimize, and what abilities you have to effectively ignore when you do choose to optimize any given thing.
This. FoB is the monk's defining ability but then it conflicts with every other active ability the monk has.
FoB conflicts with:
-fast movement
-slow fall
-high jump
-ki point extra speed
-abundant step
-empty body
-wholeness of body
There are a few exceptions: stunning fist (bonus feat), maneuver training (sort of) and quivering palm.
All of the rest of the monk's abilities are passive defenses: evasion, still mind, purity of body, improved evasion, diamond body, diamond soul, timeless body, and perfect self.
Looking at his active abilities, you have a conflict: stay still and use FoB or use all of these mobility options and attack as a 3/4 bab class.
This is what I don't understand. The monk gets feats without paying the prereqs. These feats are things like tripping, gappling, and disarming. They get enhanced movement. They get spell resistance, etc.
In fact, none of their abilities are useful all the time. They won't be using their enhanced movment or their ability to disarm or anything else all the time.
But, because their flurry which isn't useful all the time either is arbitrarily identified as the monk's signature ability? Why? Why is it a problem that flurry doesn't work all the time but its not a problem that trip, grapple, disarm, movement, etc. aren't useful all the time?
The answer is obvious. There is a befuddled idea that the most important thing a monk can do is roll to hits and as many to hits as posssible.
The problem is that while you can't use the other abilities all the time, they at least don't conflict with each other. FoB is, whether your like it or not, presented as a "key" ability of the monk. Unfortunately, so is fast movement and mobility in general. This is a direct conflict that causes confusion amongst those not already playing monks. You are failing to understand what the class looks like to a new player; this confusion is a problem for new people. Older players automatically pick which one they want to focus on and ignore the rest, but new players don't have the base knowledge of the system to be fully comfortable doing that.