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Clarification on feat prereqs for my sanity


Rules Questions


I'm sure it has been hashed out a number of times already, all over the boards, but I have a rules clarification that needs... clarification.
I have been wanting to run a grappling monk for a campaign and the feat at first level was going to be Grabbing Style. The GM has ruled that I cannot take that as a first level monk because I do not have a BAB +6. After explaining to the GM that in the prereqs the Flurry of Blows class feature allows me to take it without the BAB+6, the decision is this: If you can show me 'in the book' where it specifically states that you only have to meet one of those prereqs listed after the semicolon, then you can take it.
GM will not budge and says until there is an actual PAIZO product that explains that, I will have to wait until level 8.. So, question is, where can I find an actual clarification of that description? He will not take what he calls "advice" from the message boards and insists that if it were intended by the authors they would have clearly and purposefully placed an "or" between each of the listed prereqs.

Scarab Sages

CadaVerlive wrote:

I'm sure it has been hashed out a number of times already, all over the boards, but I have a rules clarification that needs... clarification.

I have been wanting to run a grappling monk for a campaign and the feat at first level was going to be Grabbing Style. The GM has ruled that I cannot take that as a first level monk because I do not have a BAB +6. After explaining to the GM that in the prereqs the Flurry of Blows class feature allows me to take it without the BAB+6, the decision is this: If you can show me 'in the book' where it specifically states that you only have to meet one of those prereqs listed after the semicolon, then you can take it.
GM will not budge and says until there is an actual PAIZO product that explains that, I will have to wait until level 8.. So, question is, where can I find an actual clarification of that description? He will not take what he calls "advice" from the message boards and insists that if it were intended by the authors they would have clearly and purposefully placed an "or" between each of the listed prereqs.

You should ask your GM where there is ever a semi-colon to seperate a definite pre-req instead of a list of choose one.

Prerequisite(s): Improved Grapple; base attack bonus +6, brawler’s flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

The word 'or' should have been enough for him. You are correct.
This is how several style feats were written. It's meant to give early access of the feat to monk types.

Archon Style
"Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +2 or monk level 2nd."
Or between two things without a comma, so you need all the pre-reqs before the final comma and at least one of the last two.

Aescetic Style
"Prerequisite(s): Weapon Focus with the chosen melee weapon; base attack bonus +1 or monk level 1st."
Semi-colon to denote a list of requires one.

Jabbing Style
"Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler’s flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature."
Same deal as grabbing style.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Agree with Lorewalker, but I think you're just out of luck. If the way it's written (A; B, C, or D) is not good enough for your GM, nothing other will be. This isn't a matter of rules, but of basic English.

It sounds like he's decided that he doesn't like the feat, and that you can't have it. I'd try to find another concept or a way to do it without this feat.


I mean, grammatically speaking, or going off of pre-established examples, it's pretty obvious. The prerequisites say, quite clearly,

Grabbing Style wrote:
Improved Grapple; base attack bonus +6, brawler’s flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

The "or" universally means, both grammatically and mechanically, that only one is needed.

Consider Dimensional Agility. If the "or" meant you had to meet all prerequisites, this feat would be all but impossible to take. Having to have abundant step (not accessible until level 8 for unchained monks) AND have the ability to cast dimension door, which, as a level 4 spell, means the soonest you could take Dimensional Agility would be level 15. It would also mean that the feat tree would require you to use your 15th, 17th, 19th, and 21st feat slots to fully explore.
...Wait... Something's wrong there...

Also, it would make the BAB requirements of Dimensional Dervish and beyond completely irrelevant, as your minimum BAB would be +11 (+8 monk, +3 wizard).

EDIT: Mostly Ninja'd.


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Actually it is where they put the semicolon that decides it. Improved grapple is separated by the semicolon, and so is required in any case. The next three are conditional, possessing any one of the three fulfills the requirement beyond improved grapple.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

As Iff pointed out... show your GM the english rules for semi-colon use and how to use and/or in a separated list. Those are the real rules he is missing and not Pathfinder ones.

You can use a semi-colon to separate two lists which already contain commas. The two lists, in the case of Grabbing Style, are: 'Improved Grapple' and 'base attack bonus +6, brawler’s flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature'

The first list is the a list of pre-reqs that must be taken as per normal pre-req list rules.

The second list includes the word 'or'. This would apply to the entirety of the second list. As, if the requirement were always required then it would come before the semi-colon. Since that is what the first list is for.

Scarab Sages

Also note that by his ruling... only a monk or brawler could take Grabbing Style. This is very much not intended.

Jabbing Dancer
"Prerequisite(s): Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Jabbing Style, Mobility; base attack bonus +9, brawler level 5th, or monk level 5th."
Jabbing Master
"Prerequisite(s): Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Jabbing Dancer, Jabbing Style, Mobility, Power Attack; base attack bonus +12, brawler level 8th, or monk level 8th."
Grabbing Drag
"Prerequisite(s): Grabbing Style, Improved Grapple; base attack bonus +8, brawler level 4th, or monk level 4th."
Grabbing Master...
"Prerequisite(s): Grabbing Drag, Grabbing Style, Improved Grapple; base attack bonus +12, brawler level 8th, or monk level 8th."
That should do it. If your GM can be reasoned with at all.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Your GM must find Arcane Talent very useful to all the elf-gnomes of the world.


It's basic grammar. In a list of discreet elements that themselves have multiple items where some are separated by commas, the elements are separated by a semi-colon.

Example:

I would like three omelettes: ham and cheese; onions, peppers, and mushrooms; and Southwest style.

Semi-Colon in lists

There will not be any such clarification directly from Paizo, just like Paizo doesn't provide clarifications on the proper use of commas, periods, or apostrophes.


Nah, it'll all be explained in Ultimate Grammar, along with the new base class: The Archivist! Perfect for munchkins, it also has a whole chapter dedicated to finding loopholes in infernal contracts! (Available March 3018)

Scarab Sages

Avoron wrote:
Your GM must find Arcane Talent very useful to all the elf-gnomes of the world.

Perfect!

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