Surprise round question


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Numarak wrote:

Chess Pwn, the distinction is non-factor. Being it -the voice- from an actual person or a magic spell has no bearing in this situation, this is not the Shrödinger invisible voice.

*If* it had been a magic spell producing a illusionary voice, that would have been surprising. But it was not. It was someone invisible informing all its foes that he was there and get readied.

How do the characters know the voice is from a person or not? They don't. So the only way to know that an invisible person is in the room is to perceive them. Until the person is perceived he's entitled to a surprise round with just him in it. If one player perceived and started the attack first, surprise round with 2 people.

This is how it operates per the rules. Unless you can provide rules to support your claims then you are merely stating how you'd run the game, aka, what your houserule would be.


Invis: +20
Not moving: +20
Talking -20
Total: DC 20 to notice its an invis thing in the room, and not just sound you are hearing.

You hear the sound fine, the DC20 is to determine that sound is actually coming from an invisible creature.

The paladin moved forward to see what the sound was coming from. When he was adjacent to the wizard, that is when the surprise round began. The paladin was unaware, and unable to act from that point, while the wizard took his attack.

From there, initiative would be rolled, and then characters act in initiative order, which could go very badly for the wizard if the paladin ends up with a higher initiative, and goes before him in round 1.


I do not agree, sorry. And the reason because I do not agree is because the action of the paladin was lenient with the BBEG intentions; would have been "I cast a Fireball on that corner" instead of "I charge to that corner" would be accepted?

If answer is 'no' then, we can't accept the other situation.

If the BBEG was invisible and had a surprise round, which I do not deny, although I think that everyone should have roll a perception check at DC 15 or so -after being informed by the BBEG himself that he was there to attack them- that does not allow the GM to let characters surprised to move, attack or whatever, the BBEG had a Standard action, not the paladin who moved into position for being chopped off.


Numarak wrote:

TOZ has made a point. It says DC +20. If hearing the details of a conversation is DC 0, it makes sense that hearing a conversation would be easier, more even if the other person is talking with the purpose of you to listen it.

Considering that DC -10 is the stench of a rotten corpse or the sound of battle, maybe, we could consider that knowing that someone invisible is talking to you is DC 15?

For which all of them, all party memebers, had to roll. So no one in the party, at level 12, rolled over DC 15?

And we still have the other problem: if the paladin *was* surprised, during a surprise round, how is it possible that *he acted and moved*?

We've already shown how to figure the DC to notice the invisible man talking. Under the OP's explanation it came to DC 20. 20 base, -20 for them talking, +20 for not moving. (personally I wouldn't have given them the +20 because how I interpret 'not moving' but that's not required)

We're shocked too that no one rolled enough to perceive. Now granted, the GM might not have had the best grasp of rules and thought the DC was 40 still.

Now, as explained, before combat is started people are free to act in Out of combat mode. This is the mode you do most of your movement and searching in. So the paladin moving before combat has nothing wrong with it. Having the paladin next to you to be able to make an attack at sounds like a great time to start combat for the enemy. The paladin didn't act in the surprise round.

Now granted it might not have been explained all this way at the table, and the GM might have done the right thing for the wrong reasons. But the OP is asking if the situation was legit and we've explained according to the rules how it mechanically was possible.


Ok, another thought.

If I had not moved and one of the other party members had passed the perception check (knowing it is DC20, not 40) could they make the other party members 'aware' of his presence?

E.g:
Me: He sounds like he is gonna attack, but I cant see him!!!
Another player (who passed the perception check): Pretty sure he is up ahead, but I cant see him either. He might be invisible.

Assuming the bad guy hasn't acted yet, do we all then just roll in to initiative normally or would a surprise round still apply?

With my low wisdom my guy might still charge in future despite the danger!!! :D


The surprise round does not start when its most favorable to the ambusher. It has its own rules, which involves perception and stealth, not when "the paladin moves in position".

It is not true that "The paladin moved forward to see what the sound was coming from". The paladin, actually, moved to attack whatever was coming from that position.


Numarak wrote:

I do not agree, sorry. And the reason because I do not agree is because the action of the paladin was lenient with the BBEG intentions; would have been "I cast a Fireball on that corner" instead of "I charge to that corner" would be accepted?

If answer is 'no' then, we can't accept the other situation.

If the BBEG was invisible and had a surprise round, which I do not deny, although I think that everyone should have roll a perception check at DC 15 or so -after being informed by the BBEG himself that he was there to attack them- that does not allow the GM to let characters surprised to move, attack or whatever, the BBEG had a Standard action, not the paladin who moved into position for being chopped off.

OP already explained that the GM just had him move normally, "charge" in this case was describing the intent of movement, not actually using the charge action. As charge can't be done without a target.

People are free to cast spells outside of combat. Once they are intentionally attacking an enemy though is when combat would have started. If someone said they wanted to cast fireball I would have pull initiative then and let them cast that fireball in the surprise round that the wizard would also have been in.

Already explained, paladin moved up, then wizard started combat and got his 1 attack off in the surprise round. Combat isn't started until initiative is rolled. paladin hadn't rolled initiative? then he's not actually taking any combat actions. He's making an Out of combat action to move.


Yes, Jaynay27, that is what I'm trying to point out.

Let's say I agree with the DC 20 -although I feel that know8ing that someone invisible is talking to *you* should not be that high- everyone in the room should have rolled.

People who passed the check would be in the surprise round and roll initiative, which includes the BBEG, and acted accordingly, but in no way, the paladin who is still figuring out what's going on have to move into position.


Jaynay27 wrote:

Ok, another thought.

If I had not moved and one of the other party members had passed the perception check (knowing it is DC20, not 40) could they make the other party members 'aware' of his presence?

E.g:
Me: He sounds like he is gonna attack, but I cant see him!!!
Another player (who passed the perception check): Pretty sure he is up ahead, but I cant see him either. He might be invisible.

Assuming the bad guy hasn't acted yet, do we all then just roll in to initiative normally or would a surprise round still apply?

With my low wisdom my guy might still charge in future despite the danger!!! :D

Personally I'd have the wizard start the surprise round once he's been noticed.

But assuming he didn't, I'd have everyone roll initiative and those that knew something was there would get a surprise round.

It's kinda like illusions. Even though I know it's an illusions, me telling you that only gives you a +4 on your save, not an autopass. "Even if you're the most believing and trusting guy and I'm the most honest paladin ever and there's a zone of truth and..." It's how the rules are written.

But I'd probably give a +5 bonus for knowing exactly which square to look in.


The GM determines when combat starts.

If I am a rogue, and I am wanting to ambush someone, and I have a melee weapon, yes, I am going to wait until they are adjacent to me to make my surprise attack during the surprise round.

Same thing with the wizard. The paladin was surprised, because he failed his perception check. The wizard didn't start combat until the paladin was in an optimum place to do so. No one else in the party perceived the wizard, so they were not able to start the combat in a more favorable time.

To me, if group 1 knows about group 2, and group 2 doesn't know about group 1 (failed perception checks) then group 1 decides when the combat starts. Group 2 can say what they are doing, just like they normally do before combat starts, but they cannot start combat with something they don't perceive.


Numarak wrote:

The surprise round does not start when its most favorable to the ambusher. It has its own rules, which involves perception and stealth, not when "the paladin moves in position".

It is not true that "The paladin moved forward to see what the sound was coming from". The paladin, actually, moved to attack whatever was coming from that position.

When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.

Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round.

Combat begins when the GM decides, which is when someone wants to do a hostile action aka an attack, at their enemy. None of the players started combat hostile actions. Paladin wanted to start a fight, but had no enemy to engage. GM could have told OP "you can't charge without a target" in which case the OP probably would have gone "okay, I move up to the voice to attack the source square." Once the paladin moves next to wizard wizard starts combat, since he is aware of his enemy, and gets his surprise round before the paladin can do his OoC attack at the voice square.


Jaynay27 wrote:

Ok, another thought.

If I had not moved and one of the other party members had passed the perception check (knowing it is DC20, not 40) could they make the other party members 'aware' of his presence?

E.g:
Me: He sounds like he is gonna attack, but I cant see him!!!
Another player (who passed the perception check): Pretty sure he is up ahead, but I cant see him either. He might be invisible.

Assuming the bad guy hasn't acted yet, do we all then just roll in to initiative normally or would a surprise round still apply?

With my low wisdom my guy might still charge in future despite the danger!!! :D

Nope. You can't act in the surprise round, because you can't perceive the enemy.

The same way someone with see invis can't tell you "Invisible wizard is gonna stab you" and give you back your dex to ac for the attack. It just doesn't work. He can say it, but you can't react fast enough to be useful during the surprise round (baring other abilities, like the lookout teammwork feat).


There is only one surprise round, and has no bearing with someone being invisible or not.

Let's say there were 4 PCs and one -invisible- BBEG.

BBEG talks. Everyone in the room rolls perception, even before he talks, everyone had another perception check from the BBEG moving into position, but lets assume no one got that check.

After everyone rolled perception, everyone who had passed the perception check ( DC 20 highest option - although I feel it should be a bit lower- ) are in a surprise round, those people roll initiative and have a Standard action, which include say some words as a Free Action, like "the bad guy is there!"

If no PC passsed the perception check, then the BBEG has a surprise round, and only in this case, would make some sense for your paladin to wander around, but I would roll randomly to which direction you walked, since you did not pass the perception, actually, I would inform you: you heard a voice but you are not sure where it came from and what it said.


BBEG talks, this doesn't have to start combat. If PCs all fail their perception, it could be a message spell, or magic mouth, or illusion, or a number of different things. Not enough to start combat.


Chess Pwn, as Tarantula just said: "Nope. You can't act in the surprise round, because..."

But declaring to attack an square is acting. More even, how the heck did the paladin know to which square he had to move if he had no pass the perception check in the first instance?

So, we are in the case of a paladin who acted during a surprise round while being surprised and used his standard action as a move action to go next to an invisible foe for which he had no clue he was there.


I agree, Tarantula, talking does not necessarily start combat, but, for me, attacking a square does. After that, the invisible attacker retains invisibility, of course, but the paladin is already hacking out the hell of the room.


What you are trying to convince me is that:

As the BBEG is invisible he necessarily must obtain a surprise round, and that is not true.

Or:

The combat only starts when the invisible attackers decide to. Which neither is true.

For me is like those situations where the bad guy starts explaining his evil plan and the good guy comes and chops his head off. Sorry, pal, yes, you were invisible, you had the edge, next time, instead of bragging around, you get that in use.


And I'm not saying that the paladin could charge, not at all, or act in the surprise round.

What I'm trying to say is that if there was a surprise round, then was in favor of the BBEG, the surprised characters should not have acted.

So, after speaking, if everyone had failed their percepcion check, when the paladin said "I charge into that square", the answer should have been, no, you are surprised, you can't act, I'll inform you when you can.

EDIT: (explanation of my point of view)

1st round: BBEG talks. Reaction: PCs roll perception (should be around DC 20 + distance modifiers + circumstance modifiers ).

Characters that pass the perception check act in the surprise round, characters who do not, are surprised and *do not* act. Chatacters who act must roll Initiative and have a Standard Action.

2nd round: the rest of Characters who did not act on round 1 roll Initiative and regular combat rounds start.

---

What happened instead was: BBEG talks, all the PCs fail the perception check, but BBEG did not get the surprise round, instead, they did not enter combat and the player who spoke first acted first, not being able to initiate combat against someone who was not able to see. Remember that being invisible does not immunize you to entering combat.

---


I see it this way.

BBEG talks, perception is rolled, no one sees him.

Paladin: "I want to charge in and attack him."
GM: "You don't know where he is."
Paladin: "I move to the middle of the room, with my sword ready"
GM: "Roll intiative, you are attacked as you move through the room at this space."


My understanding:

Situation: Party moves into room with BBEG. BBEG is invisible and waiting (not moving).

Actions:
Party Movement: As soon as each party member comes within 30', they get a DC 42 check. (20 [invis] + 20 [no move] + 2 [>20', <=30'])

BBEG speaks: All party members within 30' make a DC 20 to DC 22 check. All who pass, know BBEG is there somewhere. As asking only close players would give away info, ask all and only close ones can succeed.

Paladin declares attack: several things happen.
1) Initiative is rolled.
2) Awareness is checked:
GM already knows BBEG is aware of party.
Final perception check for those who haven't actually had a chance to check.
2A) If no one in the party has sensed the BBEG, then the BBEG is the only one to act in the surprise round.
2B) If any in the party have sensed the BBEG, then they and the BBEG get to act in the surprise round by initiative order.
2C) Had the BBEG not been aware of the party but some in the party aware of him, then the party would have a surprise round to attack BBEG while the BBEG did not get an action.
2D) Had no one been aware of each other, then no combat happens until something new happens. The paladin's movement might trigger the BBEG's perception to start things, but if the BBEG still cannot perceive anyone, and did get hit by accident, combat would still be delayed.

Surprise round finishes:
Combat goes in initiative order.

Notes:
The party moving, the BBEG speaking, and the party searching for him can all happen and no combat trigger.

/cevah

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