What condition(s) does a Bolt Ace's 'Pinning Shot' ability cause?


Rules Questions


Is it:
A) Entangled, Staggered, Unable to move.
B) Pinned, Unable to move.
C) All the above.
D) Only unable to move.

PRD; Gunslinger, Archetypes & Class Options, Advanced Class Guide wrote:


Pinning Shot : At 15th level, the bolt ace can spend 1 grit point while shooting a crossbow and attempt to pin down its target with the bolt. If the crossbow attack hits, it pins the target to a nearby object, to a wall, or to the ground, entangling and staggering the target. While pinned by the bolt, the target cannot move (except by teleportation) until it takes a standard action to free itself from the pinning bolt. This deed replaces menacing shot.

I'm a little curious as to whether this ability grants the actual conditions of Entangled, Staggered or Pinned, along with all their penalties (Limited actions per turn, -4 AC, -4 Dex, -2 to attack rolls). The only certain effect it seems to unquestionably have is the inability to move without taking a standard action, but some of the above conditions also fit. It's important to know, especially when this deed can be chosen by Signature Deed and applied to every single attack.


It would seem to be D. It doesn't specify giving any conditions, and the context of it using the word pin seems more simply explanation of what's happening, rather than any actual rules.


I agree with Saethori about the pin, but I'm not so sure about entangling and staggering. While "pin" is a useful English word in this context, hence probably not a condition, what does the use of "staggering" add if it's not a condition?

So either (A) or (D), leaning towards (A).


Oh, I missed that text. My vote is (A) too, then.


I've seen both Stagger and Entangle used in other sections of the PRD as verbs that basically denote 'granting the staggered/entangled conditions', but both are fairly rare.

'Entangling' can be seen in the PRD's description of a tanglefoot bag, as the most popular example.

PRD; Equipment, Core Rulebook wrote:
When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature ...

Emphasis mine. Because it never says 'gains the entangled condition', and instead only says 'entangling' (then explains what the entangled condition does), I'd argue for option (A) or (C). It says the bolt is entangling and staggering the target.

Pinning is more ambiguous, and the pinned condition is usually only granted by grapple-related abilities and effects. The only instances I can see in the PRD of a creature being 'pinned' outside of this context is with regards to environmental effects, the Earthquake spell, structure collapses, etc. ... So I chose to ask the forums. Thanks for input.


Bump, for any further input?


A would be correct.


Seems to be a solid A by my reading.


A or D, probably A. Definitely not actually imposing the "pinned" condition. If you need a really really safe ruling, then treat it as A when used by enemies and D when used by players.


...I guess that's as close to consensus as it gets. Strange that an ability named "Pinning Shot" does not actually pin, but there have been misleading ability names before. Thank you folks.


imo its generally best to only go bolt ace for 5 levels to get dex to dmg and then the rest in another class as bolt ace doesnt have anything really going for it after lvl 5 since you cant have signature deed on the ability that allows you to make touch attacks with a cross bow


I'd argue they're still a very viable crossbowman. The one ability pointed out here alone can be overpowered as all hell, if you can get to that level. Gradually improving armor, two good saves, full BAB, and some decent utility...

What are you suggesting as an alternative for a Bolt Ace?


Bane Wraith wrote:

I'd argue they're still a very viable crossbowman. The one ability pointed out here alone can be overpowered as all hell, if you can get to that level. Gradually improving armor, two good saves, full BAB, and some decent utility...

What are you suggesting as an alternative for a crossbowman?

bolt ace 5/crossbow using base fighter relying on full attacks and do massive damage and still wear mithril fullplate and have most of his dex to ac or bolt ace 5/crossbowman fighter archetype and vmc rogue with a mithril breast plate and that one trait that makes armor check penalties go to 0 and a decent ac and have that character that uses vital strike 1 time a round every round from stealth and is undetectable to most because of a high stealth score and feats/abilities that reduce sniping penalties, some builds can even get sniping penalties to 0 so you are sniping things 100+ feet away for sneak attack dmg every turn with a stealth of like 50+ at higher levels. both builds would work even better if you can get your dm to give you the 3.5 great crossbow.


Nimble+chainshirt eventually rivals a fullplate, and starting off, a mithral fullplate wouldn't accommodate this character's dex modifier. Switching to a fighter after level 5 would limit the bolt ace to a single type of crossbow for effective damage, with basically only additional feats as a tradeoff. I'd prefer the eventual evasion, uncanny dodge, and pinning shots.

I'm not looking to play a ranged stealth character, and usually declare such ones to be too situational and open to too many counters; A bolt ace with snapshot feats, maybe even the overwatch style, are pretty effective in most any place that a crossbowman would be. Instead of a single vital strike, why not prepare four pinning bolts w/ full bab -2 against 'any enemy that moves'?

Perhaps I'll create an Advice thread later on the matter. If you're interested in discussing, you can open one yourself.


Bane Wraith wrote:

Nimble+chainshirt eventually rivals a fullplate, and starting off, a mithral fullplate wouldn't accommodate this character's dex modifier. Switching to a fighter after level 5 would limit the bolt ace to a single type of crossbow for effective damage, with basically only additional feats as a tradeoff. I'd prefer the eventual evasion, uncanny dodge, and pinning shots.

I'm not looking to play a ranged stealth character, and usually declare such ones to be too situational and open to too many counters; A bolt ace with snapshot feats, maybe even the overwatch style, are pretty effective in most any place that a crossbowman would be. Instead of a single vital strike, why not prepare four pinning bolts w/ full bab -2 against 'any enemy that moves'?

Perhaps I'll create an Advice thread later on the matter. If you're interested in discussing, you can open one yourself.

oooo never saw overwatch style that would have been very handy to have a few months ago


Lady-J wrote:
Bane Wraith wrote:

I'd argue they're still a very viable crossbowman. The one ability pointed out here alone can be overpowered as all hell, if you can get to that level. Gradually improving armor, two good saves, full BAB, and some decent utility...

What are you suggesting as an alternative for a crossbowman?

bolt ace 5/crossbow using base fighter relying on full attacks and do massive damage and still wear mithril fullplate and have most of his dex to ac or bolt ace 5/crossbowman fighter archetype and vmc rogue with a mithril breast plate and that one trait that makes armor check penalties go to 0 and a decent ac and have that character that uses vital strike 1 time a round every round from stealth and is undetectable to most because of a high stealth score and feats/abilities that reduce sniping penalties, some builds can even get sniping penalties to 0 so you are sniping things 100+ feet away for sneak attack dmg every turn with a stealth of like 50+ at higher levels. both builds would work even better if you can get your dm to give you the 3.5 great crossbow.

Mithril Full Plate with full Armor Training will get you (at-best) a +7 Dexterity Bonus (so call it +6, since we will lose out on a rank of it), and by the time you're getting Armor Training, you're going to be well over that +7, meaning that's a lot of deadweight Dexterity modifiers being applied to your AC. Core Fighter is only good if you have access to the Weapon Master's Handbook (and even Armor Master's Handbook), but with it, it's servicable. Otherwise, an Urban Barbarian (or even Unchained Barbarian) would be better suited to the task.

Mithril Breastplate isn't much better; no ACP, true (though with Mithril Full Plate and Armor Training, you'd have no ACP either), but your MDB isn't much better (+9 with full Armor Training). The truth is, the best armor for Dexterity-based characters is either a Haramaki or Silken Ceremonial Armor; armors that aren't limited by MDB, and have no use for ACP. This makes Fighter Archetypes which substitute Armor Training worthwhile (because otherwise Armor Training does absolutely nothing for the character). Lore Warden and similar archetypes would no doubt be better choices.

Oh, and Crossbowman Fighter archetype sucks nuts. Its effects would not stack with the Bolt Ace benefits (i.e. no dual Dexterity bonuses to your attacks via Readied Actions), and has crappy DPR because of its stupid mechanics.

And I have to ask what you're going to accomplish with the VMC Rogue? Sneak Attack is a horrible thing to optimize as a Ranged character, because there are zero abilities and effects which synergize with the ability to sneak attack at a range. In fact, the only way you could is with the Empty Quiver Style and being able to use your Crossbow as a Melee Weapon in combat. The upside is you get Dexterity to Damage because of your Class Features. The downside is you're stuck with Strength to Hit unless you attach an Effortless Lace to your Crossbow and pick up Weapon Finesse as a feat. At least you won't need to take the Snap Shot feat chain with this.

If you were going to go with a Sneak Attack oriented subject, I'd instead recommend the Sniper Slayer archetype. It's full BAB, same saves and HP as a Gunslinger, plus Studied Target, and better scaling Sneak Attack (which can be synergized with Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat). You also add your Slayer levels to your Sneak Attack Damage, and have practically zero ranged increment penalties to your attacks (with a Heavy Crossbow, you're looking at being able to shoot 360+ feet without penalties). Other good options are the Divine Marksmen Ranger (if you don't like spells, otherwise Witchguard Ranger is crazy-awesome, since you get a wicked-good Nature Bond, Witch Patron Spells, better bonus feats, and so on), or as stated before, the Vanilla Fighter with the Weapon/Armor/Magic Master Handbook resources (or a non-Armor Training archetyped Fighter).


Bane Wraith wrote:
Perhaps I'll create an Advice thread later on the matter. If you're interested in discussing, you can open one yourself.

Before you do, I already did something similar, so perhaps perusing the above thread will give you better insights as to what would be better after the 5 levels of Bolt Ace.


Huh... Thank you for your input and research. o.o

Am I taking your input to mean you also think the Bolt Ace should multiclass out when it can, or simply offering suggestions if one decides to?

Edit: somewhat ninja'd. I'll continue reading.


The thread I linked answers all those questions.

In short, yes, because the only reason to stay more levels into it (Signature Deed for the Sharp Shoot Deed) just doesn't work, and the other class deeds are shored up by taking feats.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Mithril Full Plate with full Armor Training will get you (at-best) a +7 Dexterity Bonus (so call it +6, since we will lose out on a rank of it), and by the time you're getting Armor Training, you're going to be well over that +7, meaning that's a lot of deadweight Dexterity modifiers being applied to your AC. Core Fighter is only good if you have access to the Weapon Master's Handbook (and even Armor Master's Handbook), but with it, it's servicable. Otherwise, an Urban Barbarian (or even Unchained Barbarian) would be better suited to the task.

Mithril Breastplate isn't much better; no ACP, true (though with Mithril Full Plate and Armor Training, you'd have no ACP either), but your MDB isn't much better (+9 with full Armor Training). The truth is, the best armor for Dexterity-based characters is either a Haramaki or Silken Ceremonial Armor; armors that aren't limited by MDB, and have no use for...

ya in all honesty i would only put 7 levels into crossbow fighter to make it so the enemy is denied their dex bonus to ac and put the rest into slayer for more sneak attack so with overwatch style that's 4 attacks that ignore targets dex and dodge bonuses to ac and going against touch flat foot ac in the 1st range increment if you spend the grit on average that will be a 10 needed to hit the target for 4d10+(4*dex)+12d6 minimum per round if you can keep your grit pool up and yes using a mithril breast plate will cause you to miss out on some dex to ac but it will also increase your flat foot ac in case you get caught flat footed


This thread was originally inspired for a certain flavor of character I wanted to play. I wanted to have a Lore Warden sort of fighter weapon that would eventually become a Student of War. I loved the concept of a ranged non-magical specialist that could both identify any enemy, and...*ahem*... Attack its weak point for MASSIVE DAMAGE!

Unfortunately, my first iteration of the character fell completely flat. With the Bolt Ace, I see the opportunity to try again, only with flavor rather than mechanics, and a ranged character without magic. At first I thought I'd do the vital strike thing, and take full advantage of the Sharp Shoot deed when needed against bigger opponents. Testing it out in concept didn't work so hot. An eldritch archer magus of the same level would always be better, no matter the attempt (Although a prone shooting Bolt Ace is always superior AC wise). So, I've settled for the typical rapid shot, deadly aim, snap shot build. I've traditionally stayed away from rangers and most of their archetypes, as I loathe the favored X abilities and could never seem to find an archetype that worked. Seems like you disliked it as well.

I *Love* Pinning shot. I like being able to deal ability damage bleed. I like the situational targeting deed. I like having a deed that will guarantee shooting through Blur, and having an attack that will guarantee a rogue can sneak attack a creature for a full round. The AC is there, the BAB is there, Initiative too, and improving wisdom is their 2nd-3rd most important stat. My only issue is trying to last until 15th level with this character, and I think there's enough there to try it out when I get the opportunity.

Trying the build:

Bonus Feat 1: Point Blank Shot
Feat 1: Precise Shot
Feat 3: Rapid Reload (Light X-bow)
Bonus Feat 4: Rapid Shot
Feat 5: Deadly Aim
Feat 7: Crossbow Mastery
Bonus Feat 8: Weapon Focus (H. X-bow)
Feat 9: Clustered Shot
Feat 11: Improved Precise Shot
Bonus Feat 12: Overwatch Style
Feat 13: Overwatch Tactitian
Feat 15:Signature Deed (Pinning Shot)
Bonus Feat 16: Overwatch Vortex
Feat 17: Snap Shot
Feat 19: Improved Snap Shot
Bonus Feat 20: Impact Critical Shot

Still not sure whether to switch around the Overwatch Style and Snap Shot feats.


Lady-J wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Mithril Full Plate with full Armor Training will get you (at-best) a +7 Dexterity Bonus (so call it +6, since we will lose out on a rank of it), and by the time you're getting Armor Training, you're going to be well over that +7, meaning that's a lot of deadweight Dexterity modifiers being applied to your AC. Core Fighter is only good if you have access to the Weapon Master's Handbook (and even Armor Master's Handbook), but with it, it's servicable. Otherwise, an Urban Barbarian (or even Unchained Barbarian) would be better suited to the task.

Mithril Breastplate isn't much better; no ACP, true (though with Mithril Full Plate and Armor Training, you'd have no ACP either), but your MDB isn't much better (+9 with full Armor Training). The truth is, the best armor for Dexterity-based characters is either a Haramaki or Silken Ceremonial Armor; armors that aren't limited by MDB, and have no use for...

ya in all honesty i would only put 7 levels into crossbow fighter to make it so the enemy is denied their dex bonus to ac and put the rest into slayer for more sneak attack so with overwatch style that's 4 attacks that ignore targets dex and dodge bonuses to ac and going against touch flat foot ac in the 1st range increment if you spend the grit on average that will be a 10 needed to hit the target for 4d10+(4*dex)+12d6 minimum per round if you can keep your grit pool up and yes using a mithril breast plate will cause you to miss out on some dex to ac but it will also increase your flat foot ac in case you get caught flat footed

"only" put 7? That's 1/3 of your levels on a good day, and as we know, most days aren't good. Slayer's Studied Combat also has bad action economy synergy with readied actions, unless you start as a 7th level Slayer. So if you start as a Bolt Ace 5/Crossbow Fighter 7/Slayer 7 and pick up the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat, Overwatch Style, and maybe some misc. Fighter Weapon Training or something, you might be able to deal fair amount of ranged sneak attack damage against a very easy target by spending a lot of resources. but that's a 19th level build, which means that you should basically be able to instakill people by now. The Monk would have been able to touch-kill enemies for a while at 19th level.


If we're talking ranged Sneak Attack, we have to bring up Kobolds.
Kobold Sniper reduces the sniping penalty to stealth to -10, and Signature Skill(Stealth) reduces it by 10 down to 0 (along with the later benefits of the feat; the sniping part is just the first benefit!). Add in some sneak attacking and ability to increase Sneak Attack range with Bushwacker Gunslinger, maybe add Pistolero for the Up Close and Deadly deed if you want to hit REALLY hard for a price instead of consistently big hits. As long as you get 7th level deeds, you can get levels in other classes like Slayer or Shieldmarshal/Grand Marshal PrC all you want. Kobold Gunslingers also can have good AC because of FCB (If you stick with the class to increase it, Nimble, and Sneak Shot dice), natural armour, and small size, and they qualify for Go Unnoticed. Unfortunately, the Bushwacker archetype isn't compatible with Bolt Ace, but a lot of the rest is.

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