I am thinking of a druid with a 1 level dip in sorcerer. For my cantrips, I wanted to pick up Message, so that later, when I have the natural spell feat and can cast while wildshaped, I could cast message to communicate with my party. Does this work or is it trying to get around the "can't talk in wildshape" too much? Trying to avoid taking the wild speech feat.
If you cast tongues first I'd let you have it. But at that point why not just talk to them?
Get a ring of eloquence, wild speech feat, or use beastspeak
I am thinking of a druid with a 1 level dip in sorcerer. For my cantrips, I wanted to pick up Message, so that later, when I have the natural spell feat and can cast while wildshaped, I could cast message to communicate with my party. Does this work or is it trying to get around the "can't talk in wildshape" too much? Trying to avoid taking the wild speech feat.
Message isn't telepathy, it's a broadcast of your spoken voice. Problem is that in wildshape, you don't have a spoken voice.
Right, but natural spell says you can cast spells while wild shaped including their verbal and somatic components. So can I cast message while wild shaped (yes) is the actual message part of the verbal component or covered under wild shape? (popular opinion points to no).
I guess because it is language dependant, and when wild shaped you effectively can't speak any language, that would stop it.
What about writing in the dirt? Can druids communicate that way? Everyone can read/write common (typically) so that should work pretty well.
Natural Spell also says "You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell" so even if the verbal component was the message part of message it would get replaced.
You can cast message and then whisper woof woof growl growl arf woof to the party. Without another spell or ability that's what you're stuck with.
Get a ring of eloquence, wild speech feat, or use beastspeak
yeah i was like... why not just get wild speech XD
Right, but natural spell says you can cast spells while wild shaped including their verbal and somatic components. So can I cast message while wild shaped (yes) is the actual message part of the verbal component or covered under wild shape? (popular opinion points to no).
I guess because it is language dependant, and when wild shaped you effectively can't speak any language, that would stop it.
What about writing in the dirt? Can druids communicate that way? Everyone can read/write common (typically) so that should work pretty well.
The beauty of the natural spell feat is that it essentially takes care of your spell components, verbal, somatic, and material and it just makes everything work.
The message is not part of the verbal compo0nent as the casting of the spell is one action, but the effect lasts minutes beyond the casting.
But that's irrelevant. the message spell clearly states what it does which is transmit your soft spoken voice.
Druids in wildshape typically communicate using their speak to animals ability. They would have to be in the same type of form to do so, which is why some druid cults, such as druidic shamans focus on using one form over others.
So once you are past the animal stage (elemental and plant) you can speak again? (Since elementals can speak languages, and so can plants?)
Do you even need natural spell to be able to cast while in elemental or plant form?
And you can certainly communicate with the party since they can speak. Seems like its mostly for animals who don't have the speech capabilities or hands for spell casting. Maybe I just saved myself a feat!
yeah i was like... why not just get wild speech XD
Because I'm trying to save feats, I need them for other things I have planned.
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
I think I answered my own question here. If I'm not in animal form (because I'm an elemental/plant) then I can talk. Now I just need to figure out if plants can make the somatic gestures required.
Elementals not sure plants definitely.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
Plants definitely don't talk, so...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Plants definitely don't talk, so...
Treants do. So some plants do talk. Your typical elemental (the normal air, fire, earth, and water elementals) speak as well.
Treants talk. Shambling mounds can talk.
It depends on the specific plant you turn into, whether it has vocal cords or something similar.
Check the monster's entry in the Bestiary; if it has a "Languages" line it can talk. Unless of course if it's "Languages (can't speak)" - that's for monsters that can understand but not reply.
actually i'm still pretty sure it's based on if you turn into a animal.
"A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)"
unless "animal form" is any shape used by wildshape.
The Ring of Eloquence is pretty cheap at 3500gp so it is generally the preferred method for talking while in wild shape.
One of the plants I'm interested in have languages, so that works, but the other doesn't. Can I still talk as a plant that doesn't have a language? Because wild shape specifically says "animal form"?
Can elementals/plants make the somatic gestures required for casting spells?
Elementals can make somatic gestures, they are generally humanoid in appearance. Plants, it would depend on the plant and GM determination. Some plant creatures are generally humanoid in appearance, others are not.
Between Natural Spell and a Ring of Eloquence you have both spellcasting and speaking covered.
|
I think it's pushing the limits to try to speak as a plant if the bestiary version of that plant can't speak. Yes, the druid description mentions animals specifically, but I think that's because animals are the first thing normal druids turn into. And the reason why they can't talk (lacking the proper vocal cords) applies to some non-animal forms as well. So while you could hide behind a narrow interpretation of the rules to try to justify a talking pumpkin, it's clearly not how the rules are intended.
Yeah, I realized the other plant form I was planning on using (moss monster) has languages, but it also has telepathy. Since wild shape doesn't give you the telepathy part, that would also make it hard to talk. As long as I have hands and can write for people, that should work. In combat, I can understand what other people say, and at least make yes/no motions. I guess if I can't talk as a plant, then I would need natural spell to be able to cast as a plant, (but not as an elemental?).
Yeah, I realized the other plant form I was planning on using (moss monster) has languages, but it also has telepathy. Since wild shape doesn't give you the telepathy part, that would also make it hard to talk. As long as I have hands and can write for people, that should work. In combat, I can understand what other people say, and at least make yes/no motions. I guess if I can't talk as a plant, then I would need natural spell to be able to cast as a plant, (but not as an elemental?).
Yes you would need natural spell to cast as an elemental to deal with material components as you would for any other form of wildshape.
Yes you would need natural spell to cast as an elemental to deal with material components as you would for any other form of wildshape.
This specific character is sorcerer/druid so I will have eschew materials already, but thanks for the reminder.
Yes you would need natural spell to cast as an elemental to deal with material components as you would for any other form of wildshape.This specific character is sorcerer/druid so I will have eschew materials already, but thanks for the reminder.
I do not believe that Eschew Materials covers divine foci.
You're right. Only material components not DF. Well, if I have a polymorphic pouch, and keep a DF in there, that should work. Since I have hands I can access the pouch as needed.
You caught me before my edit. You're right. I'll keep that in mind if I don't go for natural spell.
New concept, if I take the Birthmark trait, would/could that remain in place when wildshaping?
You're right. Only material components not DF. Well, if I have a polymorphic pouch, and keep a DF in there, that should work. Since I have hands I can access the pouch as needed.
Divine Focus (DF)
A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character's faith. The divine focus for a druid or a ranger is a sprig of holly, or some other sacred plant.
If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).
I don't think something being in your pouch counts. It has to be out.
I could have sworn it has to be visible if not held but i might have that mixed up with channel. In an alternate dimension definitely doesn't count though.
BNW, If I have hands as an elemental, and a pouch that I can access after I wildshape, then I can access my DF after wildshaping and use it no problem. How is that any different than having a spell component pounch and having to find/take a material out of it when casting?
Pretty sure Birthmark is something dependent on your original form, so no, shouldn't work while wildshaped.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You should be able to put your birthmark on your new form if the spell takes it off