Finesse Barbarian Doable?


Advice

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Has anyone managed to put forth a way to make a true Dex U-Barbarian work?

Does it take 3 levels of U-Rogue?

Can Piranha Strike work?

TWF with short swords?

2H with Elven Curved Blade?

I don't need it to be completely optimal, but I want it to not suck.


I'm guessing the U in U-Barbarian is unchained, since you use it for rogue as well.

I'm not sure if you can use Urban barbarian with unchained, maybe someone else can enlighten us, but if you can you pretty much just use dexterity rage and build the way you would any dex based character.

Sovereign Court

Piranha Strike can work, but it's pretty worthless for TWF.

3 levels of Urogue would probably be the easiest way and not terrible. (Though you might want to grab that 4th level too for Debilitating Injury.)

You could also get a pair of Agile weapons.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

My question is intended to be about the Unchained Barbarian and Unchained Rogue, and not at all about the Urban Barbarian. Apologies for the confusion.


Unchained barbarian makes a pretty good finesse build on its own. As a dex build, you could make two weapon fighting work, but if you can get your strength up to 13 for power attack, then a 2 handed dex build can also do very well.

While the unchained rogue dip is very tempting, it's also a long dip. So, you may just want to use an agile weapon to get dex to damage.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

So a 13 STR build for Power Attack, and then 2H with the elven curved blade?

I'll expand the parameters so that you know why I'm asking, bad me for not doing so at the beginning.

This is a PFS character. Our group's main characters are capping out in levels, so we've got some low level characters starting up the chain now too.

My intent is to be a Barbarian, but also possibly fill the sneaky Rogue role. Thus, a 3 level dip into U-Rogue is easily a part of the plan.

TWF would be great, just like every other rogue, getting more attacks for more sneaks is great, but with a maxed DEX and power attack, and then the U-Barbarian's rage, I don't expect to be doing much less damage than a straight up STR maxed U-Barbarian. For times when sneak attacks will hit, that's just a bonus.


I played a Dex-based Urban Bloodrager recently, which plays extremely like a Barbarian at low levels game. Unchained Barbarian is slightly worse than an Urban or Technologist barbarian in some ways, as it gives +2 to hit and damage and not +4 to dex (which translates to +2 to Hit (and +damage with an Agile weapon) AND +2 AC).
You have full BAB, so you can also convert to-hit into damage with Piranha Strike against lower AC foes.

If you have 20 or 25 point point-buy it may even be worth starting with a Dex of 20, since you only really need to worry about Dex and Con stats. That means you can get a lot of use out of Combat Reflexes and things that play off Attacks of Opportunity, like Greater Trip or Bodyguard.

Also remember Weapon Finesse works on Natural Attacks, so an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists can go well with rage powers granting natural attacks, such as Beast Totem, Fiend Totem and Animal Fury.
Grabbing a level of Alchemist for a Dex-Mutagen (Vivisectionist Archetype is nice) is a very good dip that boosts dex by another +4 for ten minutes.


The problem with piranha strike is that it only works on light weapons, so you may as well go two weapon fighting. Also, it's part of a source that you aren't likely to own as a PFS player. So in most cases, you'll want to go for power attack anyway.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Melkiador wrote:
Also, it's part of a source that you aren't likely to own as a PFS player.

I do own that source, most sources really, and haul them on the iPad, so no concerns there.

Sovereign Court

If you're going Unchained Barbarian, TWF is better than going two-handed. Not only does it make the build more SAD (no STR needed) but the Unchained Barbarian gets static damage, so TWF gets a lot more benefit from it.


I've got a goblin Unchained Rogue / Unchained Barbarian who is a ton of fun to play. The synergy of the new rage works out REALLY well with the Unchained Rogue's dex-to-damage. The enhanced speed helps set up flanking. In all, it works rather well.

Still isn't going to out-damage a strength-based orc barbarian, though but his stealth skill is insane.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

If you get 14 Strength on an ECB, you really don't even need Dex-to-damage.


RainyDayNinja wrote:
If you get 14 Strength on an ECB, you really don't even need Dex-to-damage.

Maybe not early on, but eventually with bonuses from leveling and gear, your dexterity will be quite a bit higher than your strength. By that point, an agile weapon should be fairly affordable and available.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Melkiador wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
If you get 14 Strength on an ECB, you really don't even need Dex-to-damage.
Maybe not early on, but eventually with bonuses from leveling and gear, your dexterity will be quite a bit higher than your strength. By that point, an agile weapon should be fairly affordable and available.

But think of the opportunity cost: You can probably expect to get a +6 Dex by the end of your PFS career, so an agile ECB would eventually give +3 damage over using 14 Strength. But not going for agile means you can make your ECB keen instead, or make it furious for another +2 while raging. (Granted, there's also some opportunity cost involved in spending the build points to get to 14 Strength instead of 13, but I think on the balance it's still better)

Now, if you're going for the Unchained Rogue anyway, you get 1.5x Dex from that, which changes the math to make it more favorable.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

RDN, can you bottom line your recommendation for me then?

3 levels of U-rogue
Use an ECB
Power Attack

Do you recommend the Unchained Barbarian, or the Urban Barbarian?

And not TWF at all, right?

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

If you're looking at U-Rogue anyway, I'd go with the 3-level dip for the juicy 1.5x Dex-to-damage on the ECB, and stick with just 13 Str.

Urban Barbarian will slightly outclass UC-Barb on damage, and have a big AC boost (no penalty, and +4 Dex), but at the cost of the boost to HP. Since UC-Barb has a much more limited selection of rage powers, I think Urban Barb is better.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Thanks!!!

If you're wrong, I know where to find you.


I think TWF unchained with no unrogue dip will be competitive. It's more functional below level 4 and can get rage powers with barbarian level prerequisites sooner (or at all for anything with a level requirement greater than 8). It depends on what you're doing with your rage powers, but at least the beast totem chain is unchanged and the new stance powers might be worth having. Either elemental or powerful stance would add more static damage. Superstition and witch hunter appear to be mostly the same and are probably worth having even without spell sunder available.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I'm not convinced that the claws from Lesser Beast Totem can use DEX to damage, the ability clearly states STR to damage, and I couldn't find a FAQ on it.


They can with an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, which affects all unarmed and natural attacks


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
I'm not convinced that the claws from Lesser Beast Totem can use DEX to damage, the ability clearly states STR to damage, and I couldn't find a FAQ on it.

No FAQ should be needed:

"Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll."

The only time dex to damage shouldn't work is when the attack doesn't add strength to damage in the first place.


You don't want to use claws with unrogue. You may not want to use them on the unbarbarian either. You'll have trouble getting more than three natural attacks and you can't use an ANA and AMF and the ANA is kind of an important piece of kit for people who can't cast barkskin. Enchanting an AMF is as expensive as enchanting two manufactured weapons. It's easier to get through damage type DR with natural weapons but harder to get through material DR.

Lesser Beast Totem is just a feat tax you have to go through to get the AC from Beast Totem and pounce from Greater Beast Totem.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Finesse Barbarian Doable? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice