Sundered Arrows


Rules Questions


In the situation I'm asking about, we'll assume an archer is faced off against his opponent. The opponent throws shuriken at the archer, however the opponent is aiming over the shoulder, or at the hip of said archer, specifically calling a shot at the arrows in his quiver.

Assuming the opponent makes the attack rolls vs his target, the bundled arrows in a quiver. How many arrows get destroyed, if any? One as you can only sunder one weapon at a time, all of them seeing they are so closely tucked together?


Generally, sunder targets a single object. In this case, I'd probably say that the target is the quiver itself rather than the arrows. If the quiver (or its strap, etc.) is sundered, the arrows would fall to the ground. They wouldn't necessarily be destroyed, but they wouldn't be available to be pulled as part of the "drawing a bow" action.

Based on the Russian and Mongolian archery styles (that hold multiple arrows in the string hand), I'd probably go with something like "as a move action, you can pick up 1d4 arrows," which you'd then be able to fire as normal over the next few rounds. Picking up the arrows from the ground would provoke an AoO.

Liberty's Edge

Gwen Smith wrote:

Generally, sunder targets a single object. In this case, I'd probably say that the target is the quiver itself rather than the arrows. If the quiver (or its strap, etc.) is sundered, the arrows would fall to the ground. They wouldn't necessarily be destroyed, but they wouldn't be available to be pulled as part of the "drawing a bow" action.

Based on the Russian and Mongolian archery styles (that hold multiple arrows in the string hand), I'd probably go with something like "as a move action, you can pick up 1d4 arrows," which you'd then be able to fire as normal over the next few rounds. Picking up the arrows from the ground would provoke an AoO.

In a home campaign I'd suggest a homebrew trait (maybe even as a "third trait") or feat that enables that style, and doing it without the trait or feat would incur a -2 penalty to hit.


Unless you have a special ability that lets you do so, you cannot sunder with a ranged weapon.


@Valantrix1 This is assuming your able to do such a feat, and the question regarding how many arrows would be subject to a sunder given the small area they would be located.

Given the idea the arrows are all bundled inside a quiver, they aren't loose, rolling around. while inside a quiver do they count as one target as a group, or one target as a single arrow. It seems odd that only a single arrow in a quiver would be sundered, but mechanic wise I understand only a single target can be sundered at a time


Rylden, you have two issues.

#1 you normally can't sunder at a range.

#2 If you can somehow do #1, you'd have to sunder the quiver before you could get attack the arrows. What you are asking is basically how many things can you sunder through a wall, tree, ect... You have to get rid of the intervening object first.

Now if you somehow found someone that was carrying around a bundle arrows without a quiver, you'd have to sunder the objects individually. The shuriken attack isn't an area attack and can only hit a single object. So IMO it "seems odd" to think a single attack hits multiple targets without something special going on.


From quivers I've seen many have the end of an arrow sticking out the top, while I'll concede the "no sunders at range" if we assume its possible given a trait, feat kr what have you, I still dont see a reason you can't slice the tail end of an arrow off while it rests in a quiver making the arrow unable to be fired. I don't know many quivers that are 100% wrapped around an arrow while in the middle of combat. If the arrow is u able to be targeted due to being in a quiver how does an archer draw one? If the archer can find one without looking surely someone aiming for them can hit them.

Seeing we keep repeating the no sunders at range, lets move archer beside an opponent with sword. How many arrows can the opponent shear in a swing that rest in a quiver, given that his swing is across the top of the quiver where the ends are poking out.


Rylden wrote:
From quivers I've seen many have the end of an arrow sticking out the top, while I'll concede the "no sunders at range" if we assume its possible given a trait, feat kr what have you, I still dont see a reason you can't slice the tail end of an arrow off while it rests in a quiver making the arrow unable to be fired. I don't know many quivers that are 100% wrapped around an arrow while in the middle of combat. If the arrow is u able to be targeted due to being in a quiver how does an archer draw one? If the archer can find one without looking surely someone aiming for them can hit them.

I used to shoot traditional archery (handcarved longbow and wooden arrows), and I run a lot of archers in PFS games.

The depth of the quiver varies, but at least half of the arrow needs to be in the quiver to keep it from falling out. (I'm ignoring modern "open" style quivers here, which have a cup to hold the heads and then a slot or clip for the shafts.)

The biggest issues with your plan are mechanical and physical. Mechanically, you can only sunder a single object in one attack, and arrows are individual objects. Physically, arrows are loosely packed in the quiver (or the archer can't get them out), so when you hit one, the others will simply move out of the way. It would be very difficult to cleanly connect with more than 1/3 to 1/2 of the arrows. (In a modern open quiver, arrows are help in place, so it would be much easier to break most or all of them in a single shot.)

If your point is to stop an archer from hitting you, your best options are (in order):

1) Stand next to him and force him to provoke an attack of opportunity for each arrow he fires. Combat reflexes plus Step Up or a reach weapon shut down archers pretty handily until level 3 (for a Zen Archer) or level 5 or 6 for fighters and rangers/hunters.

2) Engage in melee with anybody. Once you're engaged in melee, the archer takes a -4 penalty to hit you unless he has Precise Shot. Engaging with the archer himself also grants you the benefit of tactic 1.

3) Drop prone behind cover. You'll get +4 AC for being prone and at least +2 (usually +4) AC for the cover. (If the archer is still hitting you consistently with +8 to your AC, run away.)

4) Sunder the bow.

5) Sunder the bow string. It's one object, it has very few hit points and no hardness to speak of, and it leaves the body of the bow intact as loot. There are not explicit rules for doing this, so your GM may disallow it or assign attack penalties because the string is smaller and somewhat hidden behind the limbs of the bow.

6) Sunder the quiver. There's not an existing rule for what happens to the arrows. My answer to your original post already spells out how I would run this.

That gives you 6 options before you have to start worrying about how many arrows you could break in a single sunder attack.

Liberty's Edge

Rylden wrote:

From quivers I've seen many have the end of an arrow sticking out the top, while I'll concede the "no sunders at range" if we assume its possible given a trait, feat kr what have you, I still dont see a reason you can't slice the tail end of an arrow off while it rests in a quiver making the arrow unable to be fired. I don't know many quivers that are 100% wrapped around an arrow while in the middle of combat. If the arrow is u able to be targeted due to being in a quiver how does an archer draw one? If the archer can find one without looking surely someone aiming for them can hit them.

Seeing we keep repeating the no sunders at range, lets move archer beside an opponent with sword. How many arrows can the opponent shear in a swing that rest in a quiver, given that his swing is across the top of the quiver where the ends are poking out.

With less than half the arrow sticking out the top you wouldn't have enough leverage to snap them all in twain (let alone factoring in how a bundle prevents the parts of the bundle from snapping) it'd take tremendous force to cleave through all the arrows. Keep in mind that physically speaking each arrow in the bundle provides shielding for those behind it and reinforcement for those in front. Even with say a single very precise axe swing you might break 2 or 3 arrows at best.

Like Gwen mentioned, its probably better to sunder the bow, or houserule the sundering of the quiver.


Since this is the rules forum, sunder targets an item. Not several items, just one.

So you could sunder 1 arrow with one attack.

Technically, sundering an arrow in a quiver is questionable anyway. You can sunder items an opponent is holding or wearing. The opponent is wearing a quiver, but he isn't wearing or holding the arrows in the quiver. I would personally allow sundering an arrow in a quiver, but the most pedantic read does make the arrow invalid targets.


Rylden wrote:

From quivers I've seen many have the end of an arrow sticking out the top, while I'll concede the "no sunders at range" if we assume its possible given a trait, feat kr what have you, I still dont see a reason you can't slice the tail end of an arrow off while it rests in a quiver making the arrow unable to be fired. I don't know many quivers that are 100% wrapped around an arrow while in the middle of combat. If the arrow is u able to be targeted due to being in a quiver how does an archer draw one? If the archer can find one without looking surely someone aiming for them can hit them.

Seeing we keep repeating the no sunders at range, lets move archer beside an opponent with sword. How many arrows can the opponent shear in a swing that rest in a quiver, given that his swing is across the top of the quiver where the ends are poking out.

Nothing's changed about the actual sunder.

You may sunder a SINGLE item.
You MUST sunder a container before you can try to sunder it's contents.

So the answer to your question is 'you can sunder 0 arrow inside a quiver with your sword'. That doesn't seem to be the answer you want but there it is. You just can't do what you want to do.


say with lets say 5 arrows sticking out of the top of quiver, only a single arrow, IF ANT arrow is subject to sunder, no more, no less.


Rylden, I actually think what you're proposing isn't far-fetched in real life. I can imagine a heavy sword, or other weapon, being somewhat effective at damaging a bunch of arrows in a quiver. Most likely, however, the quiver itself would tear or twirl with the force of the blow, leaving only a few arrows significantly damaged.

That being said, while there are no rules to support such a tactic, but I fully support the idea of a GM house ruling something on the spot for this situation. Just make sure it isn't mathematically particularly effective, as you don't want it to become a standard tactic.

If you're confined to more stringent rules, such as PFS, see the above posts on the official limitations.

------

Btw, this reminds me of a game I played a few years back where our party of low level adventurers included an archer who wanted to save a person who was just hanged by shooting an arrow through the rope. The archer rolled a natural 20 and we all rejoiced... until the GM revealed that the rope could only be harmed by slashing damage. -.-


Rylden wrote:
say with lets say 5 arrows sticking out of the top of quiver, only a single arrow, IF ANT arrow is subject to sunder, no more, no less.

I would NEVER allow you to sunder an arrow in a quiver and would never expect a DM to allow someone to do so either. Quiver first then one arrow at a time.

But as Byakko said, a house rule is a possible way to do what you're thinking. We're in the rules section though, so the only rules answer in the above.

Liberty's Edge

hasteroth wrote:
Rylden wrote:

From quivers I've seen many have the end of an arrow sticking out the top, while I'll concede the "no sunders at range" if we assume its possible given a trait, feat kr what have you, I still dont see a reason you can't slice the tail end of an arrow off while it rests in a quiver making the arrow unable to be fired. I don't know many quivers that are 100% wrapped around an arrow while in the middle of combat. If the arrow is u able to be targeted due to being in a quiver how does an archer draw one? If the archer can find one without looking surely someone aiming for them can hit them.

Seeing we keep repeating the no sunders at range, lets move archer beside an opponent with sword. How many arrows can the opponent shear in a swing that rest in a quiver, given that his swing is across the top of the quiver where the ends are poking out.

With less than half the arrow sticking out the top you wouldn't have enough leverage to snap them all in twain (let alone factoring in how a bundle prevents the parts of the bundle from snapping) it'd take tremendous force to cleave through all the arrows. Keep in mind that physically speaking each arrow in the bundle provides shielding for those behind it and reinforcement for those in front. Even with say a single very precise axe swing you might break 2 or 3 arrows at best.

Like Gwen mentioned, its probably better to sunder the bow, or houserule the sundering of the quiver.

Add that you need to overcome each arrow hardness with an non-appropriate weapon. P weapons don't damage wood very well.

Let's say he is not using the Sunder maneuver but simply attacking an object with ranged weapons.

PRD wrote:

Ranged Weapon Damage: Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object's hardness.

Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.

P weapon against wood (like a Shuriken - no damage)

S weapon against wood (like a Chakram) - hardness x2, wood is hardness 5, so hardness 10.

So destroying 1 arrow require 11 hp of damage, destroying the next one require another 11 hp of damage, for a total of 22, and so on.

If you can do so this kind of damage with a single ranged attack, attacking the enemy is way more efficient.

It is one of those ideas that seem cool but are mechanically useless.

Edit:
Sundering with a sword, assuming you can target the arrows and not the quiver:
S melee weapon against wood - full damage, you "only" need 6 hp of damage for each arrow, that is if the GM allow something like "bundle of arrows" as a valid target.
Then the archer start using the arrows in his second quiver (as soon as archers get to a decent level they start wearing 2 ready quiver or an efficient quiver that totally protects its content.


Rylden --

It seems to me that you're asking a "realism" question, rather than a "rules" question, hence the feedback you've gotten thus far.

I, on the other hand, am game for this. It'll likely get interesting -- e.g., Hail, and well met, graystone, you crotchety rules-lawyer you! :)

Given the following:
1) exposure of some quantity and area of arrows in the quiver
2) ability to sunder/damage objects at range
3) called shot to break arrows (or the quiver, for that matter)

A) Opposed CMB vs CMD with a half-value (or less) bonus for size issues OR Attack Roll vs size-adjusted AC
+
B) Successful hit/maneuver results in damage rolled being applied vs hardness and hp of the first arrow struck, and THEN vs a cumulative, exponential progression of combined hardness and hp of the total quantity of arrows remaining in the quiver. Sneak attack and precision damage need not apply, since arrows are never flat-footed, nor are they denied their Dexterity bonus at any time. Furthermore, piercing damage wouldn't help much, bludgeoning would be only somewhat useful, and slashing damage would be best (but still have a lot to overcome).

In other words, it seems to me that a best-case result for the ranged sunderer (lol) with his/her shuriken would be *maybe* two or three busted arrows (1d4+5 Dex+enhancement point or two), and likely only the one, anyway.

Edit: forgot the damage type change in PF for shuriken -- piercing thrown sunder? Out of luck, there, chief.

Gwen Smith wrote:

Based on the Russian and Mongolian archery styles (that hold multiple arrows in the string hand), I'd probably go with something like "as a move action, you can pick up 1d4 arrows," which you'd then be able to fire as normal over the next few rounds. Picking up the arrows from the ground would provoke an AoO.

In a scenario where the ranged sunderer tries to dismantle the quiver itself (which is simpler, and still achieves the best possible result, which is a loss of action economy on the part of the opponent), I completely and wholeheartedly agree with what Gwen Smith indicated above.

Diego Rossi wrote:
. . . that is if the GM allow something like "bundle of arrows" as a valid target.

Certainly. You've got to hit that bundle with the right type of thing/damage, though . . . .


Syrus Terrigan wrote:
e.g., Hail, and well met, graystone, you crotchety rules-lawyer you! :)

LOL Well we ARE in the rules section, where all the "crotchety rules-lawyer"s live. If this was asked in the advice or general sections, feedback would most likely be quite different. ;)


graystone wrote:
LOL Well we ARE in the rules section, where all the "crotchety rules-lawyer"s live. If this was asked in the advice or general sections, feedback would most likely be quite different. ;)

Y'know, I actually kinda doubt that. Har!

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