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I honestly don't remember how may I made during the grace period. 1 for sure, and I know I finally got the Boon. I know I had had 1 prior to that, so either 1 or 2 out of some 25ish characters.
Personally, I'm a fan of them mainly for the flavor, but also because they tend to make for good divine classes when most other options lean towards the crappy side and don't really synergize well.
(I had to weigh the mechanical superiority against the fact that I'd been pretty outspoken about them already, and decided to abstain from the rush.
That's the odd thing, though. They really are not mechanically superior to Humans, and pretty on par with Half-Orcs and Dwarves. It does depend on your build, too, but generally speaking, they are a tiny bit loaded up front, but quickly grow underpowered within a few levels.
Only Aasimar get the two +2 stats, and while the variant Aasimar being given a lot of choices for those +2 combinations, but that's neither unique to them or really all that amazing.
Darkvision is nice, but that's not an uncommon trait.
Energy Resistance is fun early, but tends to be almost forgettable soon afterwards.
Daylight/Darkness is very iffy. Daylight probably does nothing for you in like 75% or more of scenarios, while Darkness can easily get your party in very bad straights. Even most of the variant racial spell-like abilities are fairly minor. A few that stand out are Continual Flame, (1 free everburning torch per session, but so what), and Alter Self, which is kind of on the strong side, but not stupidly broken.
Weigh that against the fact that you can't use Enlarge or Reduce Person on them, and that's a pretty huge hit.
People that claim they are overpowered just don't consider the downsides and the things they don't get instead. Humans are still undeniably the best option, and there was plenty of reason to pick other races over Aasimar and Tiefling for just about any build or class.
It's also worth noting that they where the first thing that was introduced to everyone beyond the core races, so why wouldn't people that had been playing for a while want to try them out. It's easy to get tired of the same old thing, especially when it's basically bee the same standard through so many different editions and similar settings and games.
It's also funny, because one of the biggest, or really just the most vocal complaints was that some GMs hated seeing so many non-humanoids, or the cantina-effect. (Referring to the Star Wars cantina where there are aliens of all shapes and sizes and no one bats an eye).
And look at things since then. There are now seven more races, and every single one of them is incredibly not human looking. I'd say there has got to be at least 3 or 4 times as many Kitsune as there ever where both Aasimar and Tieflings combined, and I'm sure the Elemental races will be shooting up too, (maybe not, they are kind of weak for so many concepts and builds, and had been a pretty easy Boon to get before that, o not that new).
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There was definitely abuse. I am not at liberty to discuss the details unfortunately.
Somewhere around 25 if you need a data point.
It appears to be not widespread according to the boards, or what the general public know. Why not mete out punishment judiciously instead of blanket restrict everything to a less permissive state? I can see how there would be merits to both sides, but I don't really understand why if it was so egregious that campaign then decided to go radio silent on the actual happenings instead of opening a dialogue on what went wrong and why it was bad for the campaign, although in that circumstance I do think that temporarily allowing far less in terms of rebuilds and stepping back on grandfathering makes sense.
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It appears to be not widespread according to the boards, or what the general public know. Why not mete out punishment judiciously instead of blanket restrict everything to a less permissive state? I can see how there would be merits to both sides, but I don't really understand why if it was so egregious that campaign then decided to go radio silent on the actual happenings instead of opening a dialogue on what went wrong and why it was bad for the campaign, although in that circumstance I do think that temporarily allowing far less in terms of rebuilds and stepping back on grandfathering makes sense.There was definitely abuse. I am not at liberty to discuss the details unfortunately.
Somewhere around 25 if you need a data point.
I think mainly it's because the group, or groups didn't actually do anything wrong, (in the PFS illegal sense), nor something that couldn't have already been done unrelated to the grace period.
I hear plenty of times people talk about doing speed runs of everygreens just to get past the level 1 and 2 hump, just because people generally find playing those levels less fun ad interesting, and honestly I've don't this a few times myself, (not so much speed grinds as quickly paced games).
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I really don't think it is even an issue anyway. I can't imagine what I would do with say.... 10+ of these races. There is no way I could make use of them.
Aasimar is at least a good enough race to be on par with a Human. I thought so little of the Tiefling I got rid of mine.
I think the campaign is in a much better place since then. Kitsune, Wayang, Tengu, and Nagaji have been a welcome addition (I rarely see these races played so it is interesting when they are.) I don't know the long term plans for the Elemental races but I think it be nice if they were here to stay.
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Just as an aside on the subject of the outsider rush being examined... it should be kept in mind that at the time of this particular event, early prestige class access was available due to the interpretation of the time (which in itself had been a change of previous thought) that the racial spell-likes answered some of the prestige class requirements regarding ability to cast X-level spells. This did contribute to the interest in 'stockpiling', in part. (It's not the only reason, but it did enhance the 'value' of the two races.)
I was quite active in GMing (and somewhat in playing) at the time but did not grab any 'new' Outsiders... I'd already had two Aasimar (one of them specifically because of the early access making a neutral-aligned 'Baron Harkonnen' viable) and felt that was sufficient for my needs.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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"Give them an inch, they'll ...Sharpen it into a point, use it to shiv the guard, gnaw off the guards legs, sharpen the femur into a point , use that to stab the other guard and take his weapon, poison that with his offal, kill the warden, free the prisoners, and use the prison as a base of operations to begin the extermination of the entire goblinoid race.
Isn't that a children story "Never give a Goblin a Cookie...."
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Racial SLAs were important then (prestige classes, Arcane Strike, Riving Strike), and both the bard and Oracle still had 1/2 level progression as FCBs (which many used to advance channel energy, animal companions, and inspire courage 1.5 times as quickly).
Also, the cost of being unable to benefit From enlarge/reduce person (one or the other- -no one really benefits from both) comes immunity to the other...and to daze, charm person, dominate person, hold person, etc.
Tack on Darkvision, essentially for free.
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Pirate Rob is not able to discuss details. I imagine it was not him that created so many.
It appears to be not widespread according to the boards, or what the general public know. Why not mete out punishment judiciously instead of blanket restrict everything to a less permissive state?What punishment could be enforced?
It may also be that punishment was meted out and no one is allowed to speak about it.
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Pirate Rob is not able to discuss details. I imagine it was not him that created so many.
It may also be that punishment was meted out and no one is allowed to speak about it.It appears to be not widespread according to the boards, or what the general public know. Why not mete out punishment judiciously instead of blanket restrict everything to a less permissive state?What punishment could be enforced?
Fair points, it is hard to punish people without outright removing them from play for Paizo. I was thinking of some in game ways to punish the players but I don't know how enforceable or necessary that is. You could also simply allow them the brunt of social pressure for the situation they caused. I'm not sure there's a good answer, but there are other lines you could have taken it. And even though I know Rob and likely many other Venture agents aren't at liberty to speak towards this, I really do have to wonder how widespread this problem was and where it occured for Campaign to feel to betrayed by its players.
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Also, the cost of being unable to benefit From enlarge/reduce person (one or the other- -no one really benefits from both) comes immunity to the other...and to daze, charm person, dominate person, hold person, etc.
True, but those things generally, in PFS, come up that often against the players, so it's not really something all that worth considering in the larger scheme of things.
I can't think of any occasions where Charm Person is used against the characters, and only a small handful of occasions that either Hold Person or Dominate Person might potentially be. Even then, they would have to specifically target the Aasimar or Tiefling, so that's about a 20% chance that it even matters in those very rare occasions, and even then, it's like another 50/50 chance that they would have made the save regardless.
Enlarge (or now with some Dex to Damage options Reduce Person) however, is a very common buff to utilize, from level 1 onwards, which is why I mentioned it.
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I can't think of any occasions where Charm Person is used against the characters, and only a small handful of occasions that either Hold Person or Dominate Person might potentially be.
Enlarge (or now with some Dex to Damage options Reduce Person) however, is a very common buff to utilize, from level 1 onwards, which is why I mentioned it.
Well, since we've devolved into spouting anecdotal evidence, I've been hit with Hold/Dominate/Charm effects many, many times, but have never been enlarged or reduced. Therefore, the Outsider subtype has no practical downsides.
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I can't think of any occasions where Charm Person is used against the characters, and only a small handful of occasions that either Hold Person or Dominate Person might potentially be.
Enlarge (or now with some Dex to Damage options Reduce Person) however, is a very common buff to utilize, from level 1 onwards, which is why I mentioned it.Well, since we've devolved into spouting anecdotal evidence, I've been hit with Hold/Dominate/Charm effects many, many times, but have never been enlarged or reduced. Therefore, the Outsider subtype has no practical downsides.
a minor difference...
the spell Unholy Blight (and similar ones for Law/Chaos/Evil) actually does more damage to Aasimar/Tieflings....
"The spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) to a good creature (or 1d6 per caster level, maximum 10d6, to a good outsider) and causes it to be sickened for 1d4 rounds. "
having sucked up one of these when my fellow party members got 4d8 - (average 18HP) and I absorbed 9d6 (31.5HP)... being a Good Tiefling can have it's down sides. ;-)
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I can't think of any occasions where Charm Person is used against the characters, and only a small handful of occasions that either Hold Person or Dominate Person might potentially be.
Enlarge (or now with some Dex to Damage options Reduce Person) however, is a very common buff to utilize, from level 1 onwards, which is why I mentioned it.Well, since we've devolved into spouting anecdotal evidence, I've been hit with Hold/Dominate/Charm effects many, many times, but have never been enlarged or reduced. Therefore, the Outsider subtype has no practical downsides.
It also makes my hideous laughter spells... both more and less effective. Most normal targets (humanoids) get a +4 on the save. But I guess it is more effective when I use it on Elementals or Demons....
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It may also be that punishment was meted out and no one is allowed to speak about it.
Especially as Mike's policy was "praise in public and discipline in private".
I really do have to wonder how widespread this problem was and where it occured for Campaign to feel to betrayed by its players.
Which in turn caused the players to feel betrayed by the PFS leadership... an ugly cycle, all around.
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It may also be that punishment was meted out and no one is allowed to speak about it.Especially as Mike's policy was "praise in public and discipline in private".
I really do have to wonder how widespread this problem was and where it occured for Campaign to feel to betrayed by its players.Which in turn caused the players to feel betrayed by the PFS leadership... an ugly cycle, all around.
and Jittery about losing them again. I have a stockpile of kitsune going...
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and Jittery about losing them again. I have a stockpile of kitsune going...It may also be that punishment was meted out and no one is allowed to speak about it.Especially as Mike's policy was "praise in public and discipline in private".
I really do have to wonder how widespread this problem was and where it occured for Campaign to feel to betrayed by its players.Which in turn caused the players to feel betrayed by the PFS leadership... an ugly cycle, all around.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I've started me a stockpile of Humans, just in case they rotate those out of the standard mix.....
;-)
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Right. You even labeled them "not for consumption.."
Yeah, I know what you mean. I've started me a stockpile of Humans, just in case they rotate those out of the standard mix.....;-)
??? Often you confuse me with your responses.???
I don't understand your post enough to even comment on it... Did I offend you in some way?