This thread is a lesson in human nature more than anything else.
If I invented a new word that defined someone as a skilled player who understands the game, then the new word would very shortly be adopted as a pejorative by people who hate mechanics. It's just a no win situation for the mechanically adept.
You can't contain people's hate with word craft unfortunately.
I blame whitewolf TBH
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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...winning through a struggle makes a better story.
Only if the primary tension of the narrative is "Who will win this fight?"
For basically any other narrative tension in the history of storytelling, no, a narrow victory does not necessarily make a better story. Plenty of narratives include combats that are won easily/quickly and would actually make for a weaker narrative if they were harder because it would distract from the primary tension.
Hm, here's a thought:
Could there be a correlation between the dislike of optimization and a lack of aptitude in telling stories other than "See if you can defeat this villain in combat"? And/or a correlation between optimization and an interest in other types of narratives?
So is the problem:
Concept: "Elven Wizard"; that's ok because you chose Elf in your concept. The fact they get INT Bonuses is not optimizing.Concept: "Wizard"; I choose Elf because of the bonus to INT. <- Optimizer?
in my experience, it would be yelling at someone who wanted to make a wizard but didn't want them to be Elven.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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in my experience, it would be yelling at someone who wanted to make a wizard but didn't want them to be Elven.
Even if you've encountered yelling optimizers before, that doesn't mean yelling has anything to do with optimization.
Sort of like how even though I've encountered anti-optimizers who engage in bigoted hate speech, it doesn't mean bigoted hate speech has anything to do with choosing not to optimize.
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I get to introduce a new group to Pathfinder tonight. It'll be interesting to see what preconceptions about optimization they bring from 2nd/3rd Edition.Let us know how it goes.
Resulting characters:
Half-elf rogueHalf-elf rogue
Human fighter
Human sorcerer
Dwarf warpriest
I waited for them to make their characters and filled in as appropriate for the party. Seeing we had two melee rogues and a ranged fighter, I went with remaking my holy vindicator as a warpriest. The GM basically handed them Unchained when they said they wanted to play rogues.
We try the party out next Wednesday.
in my experience, it would be yelling at someone who wanted to make a wizard but didn't want them to be Elven.Even if you've encountered yelling optimizers before, that doesn't mean yelling has anything to do with optimization.
Sort of like how even though I've encountered anti-optimizers who engage in bigoted hate speech, it doesn't mean bigoted hate speech has anything to do with choosing not to optimize.
sorry, I didn't give enough detail.
Screaming and not wanting to play with someone who made a wizard that was not elven.
in my experience, it would be yelling at someone who wanted to make a wizard but didn't want them to be Elven.Even if you've encountered yelling optimizers before, that doesn't mean yelling has anything to do with optimization.
Sort of like how even though I've encountered anti-optimizers who engage in bigoted hate speech, it doesn't mean bigoted hate speech has anything to do with choosing not to optimize.
sorry, I didn't give enough detail.
Screaming and not wanting to play with someone who made a wizard that was not elven.
Hmm...hold that thought...
in my experience, it would be screaming and not wanting to play with someone who made a wizard that was not elven.Even if you've encountered screaming optimizers before, that doesn't mean screaming has anything to do with optimization.
Sort of like how even though I've encountered anti-optimizers who engage in bigoted hate speech, it doesn't mean bigoted hate speech has anything to do with choosing not to optimize.
Nope, it changes nothing. Jiggy's point still stands.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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in my experience, it would be yelling at someone who wanted to make a wizard but didn't want them to be Elven.Even if you've encountered yelling optimizers before, that doesn't mean yelling has anything to do with optimization.
Sort of like how even though I've encountered anti-optimizers who engage in bigoted hate speech, it doesn't mean bigoted hate speech has anything to do with choosing not to optimize.
sorry, I didn't give enough detail.
Screaming and not wanting to play with someone who made a wizard that was not elven.
Even if you've encountered optimizers who scream and don't want to play with someone who made a non-elven wizard, it doesn't mean that screaming and boycotting non-elven wizard players has anything to do with being an optimizer.
Sort of like how even though I've encountered anti-optimizers who engage in bigoted hate speech, it doesn't mean bigoted hate speech has anything to do with choosing not to optimize.
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This thread is a lesson in human nature more than anything else.
I think this thread illustrates that if you are looking for an argument on the internet, you won't be disappointed.
...winning through a struggle makes a better story.Only if the primary tension of the narrative is "Who will win this fight?"
For basically any other narrative tension in the history of storytelling, no, a narrow victory does not necessarily make a better story. Plenty of narratives include combats that are won easily/quickly and would actually make for a weaker narrative if they were harder because it would distract from the primary tension.
That's an excellent point. One DM I played with some...7 years ago, excelled in this. I have a couple of anecdotes to share on that.
1: We interrupted this cultist leader, who hastily jumpstarts his ritual to summon some eldritch abomination. He opens a portal to this huge maw with gnashing teeth, and he calls for the cultists to fling themselves in to power the summoning to completion. Our party is frantically trying to cut down cultists as they run past us with reckless abandon, and their leader is cackling the whole time and counting down as each cultist dies. "Seven to go! Six to go! Ahahaha". We're all trying to cut down cultists, positioning ourselves to get AoOs. There's little question that they're all going to die, the question is, of what? After 1-2 rounds, my rogue realized how close the leader was standing next to his portal, and bullrushed (it was 4e so he actually used a push/slide power, but you can think of it as bullrush) him in. The DM was surprised as the BBEG was pushed into the instant-kill mouth, but rolled with it. "Three to g-aargahaha!"
2: A different cult leader. We fought through his fodder, his pets, his lieutenants. The fighter busts down the door to the leader's sanctum, and it's a brain in a jar. We expect some psionic attack, but it never comes. He's on an advanced life support system, but without anyone following him, he's completely powerless and helpless. Killing him is poses zero risk and difficulty to anyone, from the most optimized character to the least. He knows it too, he has no bargaining power. He's not going for any gambits of trying to convince us to side with him, he just tells us that he doesn't want to die. We know how dangerous he can be with minions, but half the party can't bring themselves to kill him and wait outside. The other half agrees that it's necessary to prevent him from rising up again, and draws straws to determine who will do it.
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I struggle to recall any specific combats in which the party almost died but triumphed, but these are some of my fondest tabletop gaming memories.
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One last time with feeling.
Optimization= something that a person does.
Being a dick= something that a person is.
Not. At. All. Related.
...winning through a struggle makes a better story.Only if the primary tension of the narrative is "Who will win this fight?"
For basically any other narrative tension in the history of storytelling, no, a narrow victory does not necessarily make a better story. Plenty of narratives include combats that are won easily/quickly and would actually make for a weaker narrative if they were harder because it would distract from the primary tension.
Hm, here's a thought:
Could there be a correlation between the dislike of optimization and a lack of aptitude in telling stories other than "See if you can defeat this villain in combat"? And/or a correlation between optimization and an interest in other types of narratives?
But if the tension is not on who wins the fight...then you probably do not need to worry about optimization as much. In the end, encounters in this game are not fully in the hands of the player, the GM can make them as easy or hard as he wants. In fact, why do you even need combat in situations that are narrated as easy slaughters? Do you really need to roll hit and damage to check that you hit the commoner in the throat with a sword?
Could you elaborate on one example of other narratives you talk about? Only thing that came to head was police procedure/crime thriller where you could just shoot the bad guy but you want to do the right thing dammit.
"Give us the gate key.""I... have no gate key."
"Fezzik, tear his arms off."
"Oh, you mean this gate key!"
(I've got more if you want them.)
Social encounters in general then?
Skill optimization is lot more lightweight than for combat.| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
