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Fear and meaningful traps were two of my many objectives; I'm glad to see that they're coming through.
Any questions or feedback for our GM collective?
I went into this with spoilers because I was originally going to run this, but passed it off when there was an opportunity to play and have it run by our regional commander. I did everything I could to contain myself. :)
Traps Overall: I really appreciated the traps in this scenario. Sometimes they can feel like a straight killer (basalisk, suicide haunt) or just CLW tax. The best traps in my mind force you to adjust your tactics for a scenario (not just be paranoid) or give you a chance to RP. Haunts can sometimes do the latter, and traps that trigger encounters are the most common type for the former from what I've seen. Your traps managed to do both in ways I haven't come across before. GREAT TRAPS!
The shadow double room was strange. We didn't attack immediately so the duplicates just sat there and we got what we needed (we found the door first) and booked it. I think when I run it I'd like to have the players roll initiative because the shadows are clearly hostile, and just let the players beat themselves silly until they figure it out.
The Night Terrors room: I think that, when I run this, I'm going to ask for the crowning achievement or the big goal of each character prior to the game so I can personalize the effects and then twist them to some nightmarish outcome. For players who aren't big into RP it'll be an interesting room but ultimately they won't get a lot out of it. For those who are into their character it's going to be amazing. My Paladin just kind of giggled and shrugged it off, which really amused me as everyone else biffed the save. He was very confused why everyone else was screaming and throwing a fit.
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We had a Rogue and managed not to set off any of the traps. That was a huge help. We could spot them without the Rogue, and my Magus has Disable Device, but we wouldn't have been able to disable them without the Rogue or an Investigator or some class with disable magical traps.Scrolls of Aram Zey's Focus are your friend although as a Magus you would need to UMD them. My summoner just bought some for his skill eidolon to make use of.
I carry one on my Sorcerer. Combined with a Mnemonic Vestment and a Rod of Extend Spell, he can even manage a decent bonus and duration out of it. For my Magus, though, one scroll would not have been sufficient for this scenario at 5 minutes duration. I didn't think to pick one up, but with a Rogue in the group, I'd probably not have bothered.
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One of the comments I heard was "this scenario plays 'poor man rich man' - if you have a rogue, it's going to be much easier".To clarify: what I meant by the saying was that the traps err either to the side of absolutely creaming the party or not doing much to them at all. If the party has a rogue, the first trap is going to instill enough paranoia in them that they'll crawl everywhere taking 20 in Perception. If they don't have a rogue, they're going to have a bad time.
Well, each of the areas gives some hint as to how to completely avoid the trap (except for the mechanical one, which I made intentionally obvious).
The first hallway has the inscription on the mural, under the big abyssal boil.
The statue warns of the blade barrier, as does Valais in her forced kalavakus voice.
The shadow room and happiness rooms both have their hints scrawled on the ground and walls by former occupants.
My intention was to give a "only the penitent man may pass" sort of feeling, spurring the PCs to try and figure out how to avoid the dangers (and slowly become indoctrinated into thinking a certain way, which is Laktharis's intention). This is one of the reasons that the first trap was for non-lethal damage over time. It is essentially a CLW wand trap, but gives hints as to the "mechanics" of this dungeon crawl and adds to the horror feeling after someone has been lying on the ground screaming for a full minute.
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I generally rule that taking 20 on perception takes at least 1 minute per five foot square, more if there are things occupying the square that would complicate perception. Tend not to see it happen much unless nobody at table has minute per level buffs to worry about.
Generally speaking a single perception check gets you everything within line of sight. Of course penalties for distance, light levels, etc can affect the results. Restricting the players to making repetitive checks per 5ft or 10ft squares is not supported by the Core Rules.
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We had out rogue take 20 at the intersection for a result of 37 before distance modifiers. Then we applied those modifiers and compared when something was about to trigger.
Barely made it too, by Zod. Season of the skill modifier!
My Magus just bought Eyes of the Eagle and I'm sure he'll still miss Abducted in Aether's DC's by about 10 when the time comes. Fortunately Ekewadu will have to brave Elven Entanglement first so those glasses'll be sold for Raise Dead before I get too bothered about it.
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Yeah, I did give the clues, and the players reacted to some of them. Some of them probably didn't register. I'm partially blaming language, though this time I didn't translate the obviously untranslatable things (like the "left/righteous" thing.
And yeah, I actually liked the traps because of the interesting effects. Especially the "happiest moment" one would have been interesting to get the characters into, but alas, only Valais fell for it even though they actually managed to trigger that one. The boss would have been much more difficult with the effects from all of them as well.
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Question: the final fight in high tier. I just want to check the order on this stuff
1) Laktharis asks the PCs to get the staff (charmed PCs obey)
2) Turns Valais on the PCs
3) Starts combat by Dominating Valais
4) Combat proceedsMy real question is; do the Dominate Person and the initial demonic influence of Laktharis over Valais, do both those effects work at the same time? Is he basically just really intent on controlling her and is doubling down on control magic?
Additionally, does the initial demonic influence effect on Valais break Laktharis' invisibility (I would guess not)
You should start initiative as soon as you, as the GM, feel it is appropriate. This is typically when both parties are aware of each other and are beginning to take hostile actions.
My original intent for Laktharis's control over Valais was similar to dominate person, but as she's not a humanoid (she's an outsider now) this doesn't work strictly speaking. Therefore: his use of dominate person is used up because he's trying to control Valais but it's special circumstances because part of him is now part of her. Mechanically this changes a few things: he doesn't turn visible automatically, she can get stacking +2 bonuses to resist the effect, he can try and re-assert his control as a standard action.
Laktharis is a slavery demon, and the subject of his dominance shares part of his essence. This gives him special mechanics/privileges/abilities regarding the nature of that control.
Fight balance: this also gives a round or two for the party to react to Valais while he continues buffing. On that note, he'd probably put up freedom of movement the moment he realizes there are potentially hostile adventurers in his temple. It's not specifically listed, but it's reasonable considering his intelligence and circumstances.
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Through talking with other GMs and running it myself, I have run into a few really excellent strategic recommendations that I thought I would share with the GM community:
- Shyael's detect magic SLA will pick up the evil auras of clerics who worship an evil deity, evil familiars or eidolons, as well as evil magic items such as tatoos or a wand of infernal healing. Because she doesn't know nor trust the PCs, this is likely to be the first thing she does as they approach and get within 60 ft. If she detects an evil aura, her attitude drops from unfriendly to hostile. If the PCs are able to stay beyond 60 feet and talk (shout?) with her, then it's possible they can improve her attitude before she has a chance to detect any evil auras. I usually have her ask the PCs to approach slowly with no weapons, then stop once within 60 ft. This adds to the tense nature of a paranoid paladin in the Worldwound expecting cultists and demons in disguise to assault her.
- The mimic has DR/magic. This means it treats it's attacks as magical weapons. This allows it to harm incorporeal creatures (such as a shadowdancer's shadow). Can it grapple them? Not per RAW, it would likely need to be ghost touch in some way, but that doesn't stop it from full-round attacking the creature.
- If there are pesky archers or spell casters bothering the mimic, it can use its telekinesis ability to attack itself with the offending party members. It can "violent thrust" up to 225 lbs (275 lbs on subtier 8-9) of objects or creatures as long as they are within 10 feet of each other. The creatures get a Will save. Because they're probably "less dangerous objects" this means only 1 point of damage per 25 lbs. They get hit, they get stuck. Because the mimic is being attacked it can get hit automatically, no need to roll (or arguablly just a nat 1 check). Consider using this tactic only if it has no other targets in melee range, or if a ranged attacker is causing significant damage.
- The Pain Strike Trap sits directly behind the mimic. If someone manages to get behind it during combat, feel free to have them roll their save immediately. The mimic knows it is there and will not move into it unless forced (fear or bullrush, for example).
- In The Prison of Happiness, after describing the effects for failed Will saves, consult a clock or set a timer for 2 minutes. After 2 minutes have them roll the second Will save. This allows them real-time to discuss what to do and react. Yes, the spell lasts 1.5 minutes, but a full 2 minutes is fair. Tack on extra time if you need to in order to remain fair.
- Consider rolling initiative for the room with The Shadows of Aggression room. This gets players in a "fighting" mindset rather than an "investigate" mindset. Let them attack if they choose, having the shadow duplicate act immediately after them.
- Laktharis has reach and Improved Disarm. Feel free to use his AoO to disarm a melee opponent who provokes by moving through his reach (with a flying charge, for example). The weapon could clatter to the ground below, or even end up held by Laktharis. This might be uncomfortable with holy or bane weapons, but it will be hilarious.
- Laktharis also has freedom of movement and the hourglass of last chances to help negate any save-or-suck abilities the PCs may use. Yes, he has to deal with them after 5 rounds, but that at least gives him a chance to finish the job before dealing with any debilitating status effects.
- Particularly nasty PCs can be targeted with dominate person; he can use it 3 times per day (2 more after using it on Valais).
- The tree in the final room is really a staff with tree shape, a transmutation effect. This increases its natural AC by 10 and makes it large size, so it has AC 14. However, it keeps its hardness and hit points, which for a staff would be hardness 5 with 10 hp. Yes, it's quite possible to destroy the unique magical item in this fight if PCs go about attacking things based on a hunch. Working as intended.
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If there are pesky archers or spell casters bothering the mimic, it can use its telekinesis ability to attack itself with the offending party members. It can "violent thrust" up to 225 lbs (275 lbs on subtier 8-9) of objects or creatures as long as they are within 10 feet of each other. The creatures get a Will save.
That ís nasty.
Laktharis's Disarm worked like a charm for me. The paladin couldn't make a single full round attack with his twohander because of it.
Using Telekinesis to toss around people is a fun but weird ability though, due to the way the spell is written.
But between the various options and Valais fumbling on her will save, the fight was cool. The party did not try to calm her down, but they left an animal companion taking her full attacks.
Just played this at low tier a few hours ago. We had...
Barbarian1/Summoner4 (me)
Cleric5/Skald1 (Iomedae cleric, focused on combat)
Pregen Kineticist @ 7th
Pregen Investigator @ 7th
Pregen Wizard @ 7th
The mimic fight wrecked the two melee characters hard. The cleric got smote and put down in the first round; I was at -5hp with ferocity at the end when the kineticist's fire blasts killed the thing. Ouch. Only question I had was that the GM ruled that since the thing was a half-fiend, it didn't have the demon subtype, and thus warned us that the demonbane arrows wouldn't help. That didn't quite seem right to me, but that's what he said.
We avoided the fight with the humans up top, and the fight with Laktharis wasn't that hard for us - we had prepped pretty well with Protection from Evil, so he tried to dominate a few people (including Valais) to no effect. Eating up his standard action gave the rest of the PCs some time to kill him, though he did beat up on us melee people pretty hard, and a greater command kept my eidolon out of the fight entirely due to its poor Will save.
The traps were... OK. The DCs seemed really arbitrarily high; even rolling well with a +16 the investigator couldn't disarm several of them, which felt discouraging. We got hit by the blade barrier pretty hard, and never went left (because why would you trust a demon) so never dealt with the other side. Nobody outright attacked the duplicates, so I think we just bypassed that encounter (from what's described above).
All in all I thought it was pretty solid; from the description above it seems like we missed the most interesting trap. The blade barrier trap was a generic "mark off wand charges" trap for us, and a frustrating one at that because of what seemed like an overly difficult DC. The mimic fight was quite memorable.
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Thanks for your feedback, SteelDraco!
I was intending for the arrows to be useful in either the mimic or the Laktharis fight, but I understand why your GM ruled that way. Some GMs are a bit more extreme black & white when it comes to RAW, but the intention of giving the party demon-bane arrows in the Worldwound is for them to use them. And it seemed obvious to me that a half-fiend template on something in the Worldwound would be demonic. *shrug*
The DCs were high because of how magic traps work and how the DC calculations function. Also, the intention of the traps (other than the blade barrier) was to give a way to tell the stories while still exposing the PCs to risk. I'm sad that this didn't seem to work for your party. Did the hints on how to get around the traps help at all? Each one had a way to completely avoid without ever rolling Disable Device (except for the last mechanical trap, which had very low DCs).
Thanks for your feedback, SteelDraco!
The DCs were high because of how magic traps work and how the DC calculations function. Also, the intention of the traps (other than the blade barrier) was to give a way to tell the stories while still exposing the PCs to risk. I'm sad that this didn't seem to work for your party. Did the hints on how to get around the traps help at all? Each one had a way to completely avoid without ever rolling Disable Device (except for the last mechanical trap, which had very low DCs).
To an extent, yes. Our investigator had already spotted and disarmed the pain trap in the corridor before the statue before we got a chance to read the inscription on the wall, so that was pretty meaningless for us. I took some damage (and marked off another wand charge) due to the acid spray from the fleshy wall-growths scraping it off, so it was kind of annoying to do that and then get a hint for a trap we had already disarmed.
We figured from the inscription on the statue that left was some sort of compulsion trap, and right was some sort of blade trap (I figured it would be a compulsion effect to attack yourself based on "fall on your sword"). The demon in Valais kept telling us to go left, so we actively ignored it and went right.
the trap was described to us as based on blade barrier. Was it strictly based on blade barrier, or reduced in some way? If it was literally blade barrier, that CR is 10-11, which is a bit much for tier 5-6.
base 1
+6 spell level
+3-4 for +1 per 10 average damage(I'd personally round 38.5 to 40)
My math for that would be, based on the d20pfsrd traps section would be...
Actually, I found an interesting note on that page that's very relevant.
For a magic trap, only one modifier applies to the CR—either the level of the highest-level spell used in the trap, or the average damage figure, whichever is larger.
So that makes it a CR7 trap, right in like with a 5-6 scenario.
I see that now, didn't notice it glancing at the table.
I still don't agree that it is appropriate though. A level 6, 20 dex rogue with masterwork tools has a 75% chance to fail, and 50% chance to set off this trap.
The average damage is also quite capable knocking a 5-6 char unconscious.
That's a pretty hard screw.
Especially after the mimic that killed a character a round from full.(and you know it did)
Looking above, I do think our GM was right not to apply the constrict damage to the automatic grapple from the mimic (not for the reasoning he gave, but since they don't get a roll for the grapple it doesn't look like it should get the constrict damage)
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So a very late highlight reel of my run.
The CN halfling rogue in the party didn't have a patron deity, and so took the priest up on his offer to convert to worshipping Laktharis. One hastily improvised ceremony later he proudly sported a nifty brand of Laktharis' "holy" symbol.
The only good character in the party (a half-elf fighter) was standing in front when the mimic attacked. He was critted on the smite and dropped to unconsciousness in the one hit. It was a long ugly fight that should probably have been a TPK, but wasn't.
The party contained two rogues with trap spotter. They found every trap except the Symbol. They chose to set the first one off instead of disarming it anyway because...I have no idea. But they didn't do that again.
Everyone made their save against the Symbol...except the Laktharis worshipper.
The fight against Laktharis consisted of half the party prostrate worshipping him (the convert declined to try making a save, since it was what he would do anyway), the evoker consistently failing to penetrate SR, and the good-aligned fighter darting in and out of the warded area, as he spent most of the fight with hp in the single digits. A timely crit dropped Laktharis from hubristically playing with his lessers to downed in one round.
Much fun, and the halfling was thrilled to have me note Laktharis' brand on his chronicle sheet.
I'm curious if any other tables had converts?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I was running this a few weeks back and I was struck by the careful design of the traps. In the case of my players, they didn't have any trapfinders, so they had to rough it a bit. That's when I noticed that pretty much none of the traps automatically reset. While the effects of the traps are vicious, it is possible to power through them. Though I did get to chop off a hand, it was on the ninja who didn't rely on 2H weapons anyway so it didn't hamper them too badly on the final fight.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Eh. I had trouble disarming that with my amped-up alchemist. Those were serious traps. Glad I managed to disarm the Left trap, although walking into the Right trap was pretty painful.
I'm not really sure how PCs might figure out that toppling the statue would disarm them.
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Walk 10 feet. search. walk 10 feet search. Walk 10 feet search.Because you're eliminating the penalty to Perception for distance or because you can only search a 10-foot square with a Perception check?
The 10 foot search thingy.
Ultimate intrigue said you're supposed to use the 10 foot search thingy, and half the DM's i've seen have been doing that since 3e anyway.
The way i run it is to ask if the players want to start looking for traps when it would be reasonable for them to do so... you know like in an ancient forgotten tomb of an evil god or something. That way the characters are the ones taking the place apart with dental picks, not the players. As long as no one has any minute / durations up it shouldn't matter.
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Couple notes from a design standpoint:
The trap effects were first imagined as a concept, then implemented as traps mechanically. This ended up with DCs that were higher than I would have probably wanted if the traps were designed to only by bypassed with Disable Device.
Because there's an in-game method of avoiding most of them, in the form of hints around the ancient building, I felt the higher DCs ended up being the "easy" way around them for groups that brought a PC with the ability to disarm magical traps.
My personal philosophy for traps is that they should be part of a larger encounter (kobolds with a pit-trap between the PCs and themselves, a grease trap on a chute that sends PCs into the lair of a monster, etc). In these instances, most trap-removing PCs should be able to detect and get rid of them without problem.
However, in Thralls the traps ARE the encounters so they should be more difficult to simply bypass. Also, the story is largely told through the effects of the traps. If a party has the ability to easily bypass them, they'll largely miss out on the story. In the context of the scenario, they're "meant" to be tripped. This is different from the kobolds example above in that their trap is "meant" to be avoided or disarmed.
Also, the increasing horrors in Thralls is meant to give the PCs (and their players) a feeling of escalating danger and wrongness for the being named Laktharis. Hopefully this culminates in his horrific appearance and megalomania, which makes defeating him that much more satisfying. Without the horrific traps, he'd become just a monster with weird arms.
If it didn't work out this way for your table, that's ok too. I'm really appreciating the feedback I'm getting from this thread and the reviews. Thanks, folks! Keep it up!
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Basically, soon enough your players are going to be combing the place with Take 20 and that's okay!
Because the point is to encounter the trap and the story it tells, not to reach an injury benchmark for your table.
With Take 20 most parties should be able to find the traps, but actually getting past them one way or the other is the challenge. Not nearly every party has a trap-remover that can take on these traps. (Although spamming summons gets you quite a ways through since the traps don't reset immediately.)
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Venture-Captain, Isles—Online
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getting ready for my 2nd run
made some 2.5d terrain for it this time around
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getting ready for my 2nd run
made some 2.5d terrain for it this time around
WOW! That looks fantastic! Are you bringing it to GenCon?
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Andrew great scenario, and thank you for being so active in this forum! I played this at Evie's table, and enjoyed it enough that I signed up to GM it at a con that's coming up this weekend. I think I have a pretty good handle on it, but have one last question. In B5 if the players attack their shadow twin is its attack an immediate action? Or does it only get to mimic the attack if it survives the damage? With AC 10 and 20 hp I'm assuming its immediate as most players in this level range will make quick work of the shadows. There was actually no combat in this room when I played it so I still haven't seen it in action.
EDIT: Out of curiosity(I considered doing this myself) if a player has the boon Echoing Paradox from Thornkeep would the paradox copy of you create another shadow? I think I'd let it, but would only allow it to aid/flank with the first shadow the way the copy does for the player. Depending on the player, and their actions a room with four of them all doing the same thing could be hilarious!
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Andrew great scenario, and thank you for being so active in this forum! I played this at Evie's table, and enjoyed it enough that I signed up to GM it at a con that's coming up this weekend. I think I have a pretty good handle on it, but have one last question. In B5 if the players attack their shadow twin is its attack an immediate action? Or does it only get to mimic the attack if it survives the damage? With AC 10 and 20 hp I'm assuming its immediate as most players in this level range will make quick work of the shadows. There was actually no combat in this room when I played it so I still haven't seen it in action.
EDIT: Out of curiosity(I considered doing this myself) if a player has the boon Echoing Paradox from Thornkeep would the paradox copy of you create another shadow? I think I'd let it, but would only allow it to aid/flank with the first shadow the way the copy does for the player. Depending on the player, and their actions a room with four of them all doing the same thing could be hilarious!
Wow, Zach: great questions!
The actions of the "shadow duplicates" should happen at the same time. Feel free to let the player resolve their actions without telling them what happens right away. Then, describe the shadow creatures doing the same and resolve it all at once. They're essentially mirrors of the players.
IE: Orc/Dragon-Sorcerer casts an empowered fireball at the group of shadows in the back of the room. As the bead of orange light flies across the room, a similar bead of orange light flies at Orc/Dragon-Sorcerer. Everyone makes a reflex save.
For the paradox duplicate, I think the duplicate would also have a shadow, but it would still only perform the actions of the "real" duplicate (aid/flank/etc).
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I ran this (tier 8-9) a few months back, and after reading all the forum posts about the mimic's adhesive ability, I felt comfortable about running the encounter. However, two things came up that I was unsure about:
1: The mimic initially auto-grappled the 2 PCs directly in front of it, but I wasn't sure if it was able to reach around those PCs to attach itself to other PCs behind them? I know the mimic has 10ft reach, but with the cover of PCs stuck to it, would it have been able to use its Shape Change ability to wrap itself around the grappled PCs to attach itself to other PCs?
2: A player was able to cast Freedom of Movement on everybody, which potentially made the mimic's auto-grapple useless. Was I right to allow the spell to bypass the adhesive? I couldn't think of a reason on the spot to not allow it to work.
This was one of those scenarios that I thought would almost certainly be a TPK but ended up being fairly easy for the well-prepared party. Still, my players seemed to enjoy themselves, and it was fun to see the look on their faces once the first PC put his hands onto the door/mimic and got stuck!
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It has reach, so it can surely hit creatures 10 feet away. In theory, around the hard corner is still adjacent, so it could move grappled creatures there. Also, it's a large (tall) creature, so perhaps they could be stuck to the top of the door.
Freedom of movement is a great way to get out of the grapple/adhesive, as is teleportation. Old law whiskey or a barrel of applejack is still my favorite, though.
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Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Incorporeal Creatures and "Counts as Magic": Say I have an attack that counts as magical for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction, such as from the monk's ki pool (magic). Does that mean I can't harm an incorporeal creature at all, since the attack doesn't count as magical for that purpose?
Such attacks should also be able to harm incorporeal creatures as if the attack was magic. This will be reflected in future errata.
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Also, is it intended that Valais help the PCs during combats prior to the last one? Should she fight the mimic and cultists alongside the PCs?
She should hang in the back and avoid combat, generally. I believe there is language in there suggesting this. However, if the PCs need a little extra punch to survive it's probably fine to have her engage.
Ideally, they won't need her help and will sort of forget about her as a combatant, making the ending surprise all the more effective.
Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Bondi Junction
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As mentioned before the Fire oracle has the Tongues curse and uses Greater command which means only Abyssal or Celestial speaking foes will get affected. BUT I saw another issue which doesnt seem to have been addressed here,
He is supposed to take to the air (on his wings of Flame) and then start using fire spells with his meta magic feats.
1) he has no Fly skill. with his Dex and his armor he cannot fly particularly well as it only adds to be a +1 bonus.
2) using metamagic feats with a spontaneous caster is a full round action. He can't be flying if he wants do do this. He may be able to hover as a non movement action (I have to check this) but even then he has to roll a 9+ or fail and fall out of the sky.
Is this intentional? I can see that it could be because a flying flame oracle that is well played is a horror and could be as much a tpk threat as the mimic.