How do Imperial dragons burrow?

[slitherrr]

So Imperial Dragons have "burrow", and in fact get faster burrow speeds as they get older and larger. But these dragons exist in the Underworld, which is far beneath the surface of the planet, and far beneath the surface of the planet (on Earth, at least), soil stops existing, replaced by stone (and this goes double for dragons, who would prefer to exist in areas of volcanic activity, where heat and pressure would make soil nonexistent). The universal monster rules state that stone cannot be burrowed through without overriding text in the individual monster entry, and the individual monster entry has no such text. So:

1) Am I wrong about the composition for the Underworld, and it is much more full of "earth" than would be parallel in the real world? If so, point out the specific reason why.

2) Am I wrong about the specific burrow rules for the Imperial Dragon, and there's some caveat in some dumb place that talks about how they're an exception?

3) Do Imperial Dragons spend loads of time preparing tunnelable paths in their lairs for escape (presumably by carving out sections of loose rock that the burrow rules can apply to at a speed much slower than the burrow speed)?

4) Should I encourage the group to allow a house rule, stating that Imperial Dragons get to burrow through stone? They have adamantine claws, after all, and obviously them not having it seems like it would be an oversight, but I'm playing with a group that will at least want a solid rules-based argument for why the house rule exists before they get murdered by this thing.

[Supperman]

I like answer 4, since the adamantine should cut through hardness.

[Dr Styx]

A Young Underworld Imperial Dragon has the "at will" ability to Soften Earth and Stone...

This is how it can have a Burrow speed in stone.

[Serisan]

There's a better answer here. Burrow has never been defined in the Pathfinder ruleset. As such, there is not a list of substances for which burrow can and cannot work. Essentially, it was cut for wordcount when the CRB was written, then omitted from the Bestiaries, etc., and here we are today.

[James Risner]

Ask your GM if there are any additional restrictions on Burrow. In the rules, there are no restrictions or requirements on Burrow. So Stone, dirt, metal, etc. If it is considered ground, you should be able to Burrow through it.

[slitherrr]

To Dr Styx: That takes a standard action, since it's an SLA, and also works only to a depth of 1-4 feet. It'd be only barely faster than doing hitpoint damage with claws.

Serisan: As annoying as that answer is, it's definitely the best one :/. House rules!

[Glutton]

A wizard did it.

[Milo v3]

Quote:

The universal monster rules state that stone cannot be burrowed through without overriding text in the individual monster entry, and the individual monster entry has no such text.

The universal monster rules do not state that at all, thus this in a non-issue.

[Diego Rossi]

slitherrr wrote:

The universal monster rules state that stone cannot be burrowed through without overriding text in the individual monster entry, and the individual monster entry has no such text.

When you use D20PFSRD as a rule source you should read the notes.

D20PFSRD wrote:

Note!

Burrow details were not included in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game so the details shown here were copied from d20srd.org.

You are using a rule that don't exist in Pathfinder.

[James Risner]

Diego Rossi wrote:

D20PFSRD wrote:

Note!

Burrow details were not included in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game so the details shown here were copied from d20srd.org.

You are using a rule that don't exist in Pathfinder.

I don't understand why the editorial information d20pfsrd adds is worth the confusion. It would be better if it were through a click to another page labeled house rules. It help.

[slitherrr]

I'm glad how, after the fact that burrow was C&P from 3.5e content was pointed out the first time and acknowledged, we can get two more people in here to point out the exact same thing. Great job?

[DM_Blake]

slitherrr wrote:

Great job?

Easy now...

Yes, it is a great job. Sometimes it's a good idea to add a post to a thread that basically says "Yeah, the first guy was right"; it lends it more credibility, especially if the followup post adds a URL or explains what happened a little bit. Doubly especially if there are responses on the thread like "That's annoying".

[slitherrr]

To James: I also agree that the editorial stuff in d20pfsrd isn't always helpful, but I get what the person who owns that site is trying to do, too. The real culprit is how hard it is to reconcile all these moving pieces, and the resources Paizo can bring to bear on that.

[lemeres]

Why wouldn't soil exist in the underdark?

I mean...unlike with earth, there are entire ecosystems down there that can support SEVERAL civilizations. So maybe mutant magical mushrooms and such fill in the same role as plants in the process of erosion, eventually building up a layer of dirt.

[Dr Styx]

slitherrr wrote:

To Dr Styx: That takes a standard action, since it's an SLA, and also works only to a depth of 1-4 feet. It'd be only barely faster than doing hitpoint damage with claws.

There SLA is at 8th level

10'x10'x1' per level
Or
5'x5'x4' per level
So at 8th level 5'x5'x32'
Burrow speed of 30' sill has 2' left

(Yes I know some will say "you can't change the area affect like that". But it is still the same area, just a different shape. Which I see as in the spirit of its intended use here.)

[lemeres]

slitherrr wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Why wouldn't soil exist in the underdark?

I mean...unlike with earth, there are entire ecosystems down there that can support SEVERAL civilizations. So maybe mutant magical mushrooms and such fill in the same role as plants in the process of erosion, eventually building up a layer of dirt.

Yeah, my friend and I actually discussed this before I made the thread. This is a fine way of going about it, but no matter how many mushrooms exist, there will never be the sheer amount of soil that exists in the top. Also, there is a depth after which the pressure of the stacked Earth/soil/etc above will compress any soil into rock (this is how sedimentary stone is made, after all), so there would be a process acting to pull the amount of soil back.

Anyway, it's still a solid thought.

You could also go with more fantastical answers- the underdark was formed due to strange earth subtype creatures that eat rock and pass out soil.

Thus, you could get a large supply of soil (since it is created by the rock that was originally forming the now empty area), and have somewhat stable tunnels (since the creatures liked to sturdy tunnels so they could wander about and eat different sediments at will- "A nice sand stone to go with your perignon, sir?").

Of course, that gives you various plot seeds- fighting an angry digger beast, trading them fine gems for information, freeing them from evil underlords who are using them to dig tunnels to stage an invasion on the surface, etc.