Poor Visibility and Blindness penalty interaction question FAQ

[doc the grey]

So this came up in another thread and felt like it needed to be asked here so the dev team could chime in and rule one way or another.

So to catch everyone up apparently there is a rule hidden in the visibility table I wasn't aware of that I want some clarification on. Apparently moving in a place with "poor visibility" costs double the normal movement for anyone passing through it. Now I've never seen this before and it seems pretty important so with that in mind I kind of wanted some clarifications on what this means with certain environments and spells.

1. What do you mean by Poor Visibility, what falls into this spectrum and are you talking about just light level or anything that obscures vision?

2. So like do I quadruple the cost of moving through a jungle because of poor visibility due to dense undergrowth and the actual dense undergrowth itself? Would I sextuplet it if it's also foggy?

3. Does that mean that spells like darkness also cause this? Like does the spell darkness now not only obscure vision but also give me movement denial like entangle so I now have this blob of concealed difficult terrain?

4. How does this work while blinded? I can only move at half speed already without needing to make an acrobatics check but since I'm permanently in "poor visibility" does that mean I'm moving at 1/4 my normal speed all the time?

5. Does Obscuring mist do this too, and how does this interact with spells like Acid or Solid Fog? Like does that mean a human unencumbered can only move 1 square per move action through it or 3 as a double move and a small character only 2 at max? So it would take like 2 turns to walk out of one for a medium character and 3 for a small if they were in the middle of it?

6. Does that mean that you really can't move at all in thick snow if there is also a driving snow since you can end up paying 4 squares to enter deep snow and with the snow coming down you've basically gotta spend 8 to move one?

FAQ support (especially on the blind question) would be greatly appreciated.

[wraithstrike]

1. I put my answer to this below

2. Yes 1/4 speed.

Rules citations:

hampered movement due to terrain wrote:

Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement.

Quote:

Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement.

Poor visibility is not defined well. Personally, when you can't see beyond 5 ft due to spells such as darkness and fog cloud I see it as poor visibility. Also if you are blind. Last, but not least if a storm such as a sand storm is going on that limits visiblity that would also count in my opinion.

For the purpose of not getting lost while traveling if you can't see 60 feet ahead that counts as poor visibility

Quote:

Double Movement Cost: When your movement is hampered in some way, your movement usually costs double. For example, each square of movement through difficult terrain counts as 2 squares, and each diagonal move through such terrain counts as 3 squares (just as two diagonal moves normally do).

If movement cost is doubled twice, then each square counts as 4 squares (or as 6 squares if moving diagonally). If movement cost is doubled three times, then each square counts as 8 squares (12 if diagonal) and so on. This is an exception to the general rule that two doublings are equivalent to a tripling.

<---Also explained in the "additional rules" chapter.

3. The darkness spell does not cause difficult terrain, only poor visibility. A spell such as solid fog would cause both.

4. Being blind only subjects you to 1/2 movement. When you are blind the visibility conditions really don't matter. The rules specifically say blind limits you to 1/2.

5.The fog from the fog line of spells has the same effect on visibility. Basically the hampered movement rules don't subject you to the same penalty from the same hampering source twice.

You have poor vision, difficult terrain, and obstacles to deal with. These are listed in the additional rules chapter. Each one multlplies your speed decreased by 2. Unless some other affect comes in that is outside of those 3 you only have to worry about each square counting as 8 at the most normally*. So it goes 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 your speed.

*Yes I am aware that 8 is still a lot.

6. If the deep snow counts as difficult terrain, and the driving snow(vision) is hampered movement from a storm, then that is only 2 sources of hampering, but if there is a 3rd source of hampering because the wind is so strong then yes you are taking 8 squares of movement to move one square. However you can double move to advance one square.

[Trekkie90909]

Relevant Rules Text:

CRB, Additional Rules, Tactical Movement, Hampered Movement wrote:

Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles,

and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table 7–7 for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move. If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply
all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling.
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally.
Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.) You can’t run or charge

CRB, Environment, Wilderness, Getting Lost, Poor Visibility wrote:

Poor Visibility: Anytime characters cannot see at least 60 feet due to reduced visibility conditions, they might become lost. Characters traveling through fog, snow, or a downpour might easily lose the ability to see any landmarks not in their immediate vicinity. Similarly, characters traveling at night might be at risk, too, depending on the quality of their light sources, the amount of moonlight, and whether they have darkvision or low-light vision

CRB, Additional Rules, Exploration, Vision and Light wrote:

In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. Some creatures, such as those with light sensitivity and light blindness, take penalties while in areas of bright light. A creature can’t use Stealth in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover. Areas of bright light include outside in direct sunshine and inside the area of

a daylight spell.
Normal light functions just like bright light, but characters with light sensitivity and light blindness do not take penalties. Areas of normal light include underneath a forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and inside the area of a light spell. In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4
penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night. Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

(for more rules on light, see Paizo's light and darkness blogpost)

CRB, Appendix 2: Conditions, Blinded wrote:

Blinded: The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All

checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and perception checks based on sight) automatically fail.
All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded
for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome
some of them.

So what does all of this tell us?

1) See above for definition (anytime a character cannot see at least 60'). Anything which obscures vision can cause this.

2a) IF the cause of the poor visibility is something which would hamper movement (i.e. the prevailing light level is "darkness," and the characters do not have darkvision/see in darkness and are thus blinded), and area in question is considered difficult terrain then the movement cost per square is doubled once for poor visibility, and once for difficult terrain (so a total of x4 movement cost). Note that not all causes of poor visibility (i.e. obscuring mist/fog) cause this condition.

2b) You can only be blind and/or effectively blind once, the conditions cannot stack, therefore the penalties would not.

3a) The spell 'darkness' reduces the prevailing light level by one step (i.e. from bright light to normal light). This does not necessarily impose poor visibility. It can however cause darkness (the light level), by reducing a prevailing condition of dim light. In this case the spell darkness would effectively blind all creatures without darkvision or the see in darkness ability.

3b) 'Blinded,' and 'Entangled' are two separate conditions; sufficiently poor visibility (i.e. a prevailing lighting condition of darkness for creatures without darkvision or the see in darkness ability) can cause the blinded condition. No condition of poor visibility that I'm aware of causes entangle.

4) Exactly the same as if the poor visibility were so bad you cannot see. You can make a DC 10 acrobatics check to move at full speed.

5a) Obscuring mist does not reduce the existing light level, nor is there anything in the spell description about darkness or the blinded condition, so it does not cause the movement reduction from poor visibility. The Acid and Solid Fog spells similarly work as written in their spell descriptions.

5b) That would depend entirely on other prevailing conditions (light level, and the presence of difficult terrain as an example).

6) No, a creature can always move at least 5' (even diagonally) as a full-round action.

[doc the grey]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Relevant Rules Text:

CRB, Environment, Wilderness, Getting Lost, Poor Visibility wrote:

Poor Visibility: Anytime characters cannot see at least 60 feet due to reduced visibility conditions, they might become lost. Characters traveling through fog, snow, or a downpour might easily lose the ability to see any landmarks not in their immediate vicinity. Similarly, characters traveling at night might be at risk, too, depending on the quality of their light sources, the amount of moonlight, and whether they have darkvision or low-light vision

So doesn't that mean that a clouded vision oracle moves at half speed until 5th when their vision increases to 60 ft?

Also it seems weird that visibility would interact with blindness that way yet not end up being listed in the blinded condition considering it would literally always be relevant if you are blinded. Part of why I think at least in that instance they don't stack and needs some FAQ'ing clarification.

[doc the grey]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Relevant Rules Text:

5a) Obscuring mist does not reduce the existing light level, nor is there anything in the spell description about darkness or the blinded condition, so it does not cause the movement reduction from poor visibility. The Acid and Solid Fog spells similarly work as written in their spell descriptions.

The problem is that that is directly countered by the text in the Poor visibility description which you posted.

CRB, Environment, Wilderness, Getting Lost, Poor Visibility wrote:

Poor Visibility: Anytime characters cannot see at least 60 feet due to reduced visibility conditions, they might become lost. Characters traveling through fog, snow, or a downpour might easily lose the ability to see any landmarks not in their immediate vicinity. Similarly, characters traveling at night might be at risk, too, depending on the quality of their light sources, the amount of moonlight, and whether they have darkvision or low-light vision

So with that in mind anything that reduces your visibility to less than 60ft puts you at poor visibility. Now since that is what also informs us that darkness causes double movement cost that means obscuring mist, which says,

obscuring mist's description wrote:

A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).

Would also do the same thing.

[doc the grey]

S$&@, by that definition wouldn't that also mean that if you are traveling through a dark cavern with only a torch to guide you (40 ft vision for no one with special visions) all your movement would cost double?

[_Ozy_]

You should have bolded the rest of the line:

Quote:

Anytime characters cannot see at least 60 feet due to reduced visibility conditions, they might become lost.

This says nothing about half movement during tactical combat, so there is no indication that the 60' rule discussed here is the qualifier for hampered movement.

Poor visibility can hamper movement when you can't see 5' in front of you, you don't need 60' of clear visibility to take a 5' step, for example.

[wraithstrike]

doc the grey wrote:

S!*&, by that definition wouldn't that also mean that if you are traveling through a dark cavern with only a torch to guide you (40 ft vision for no one with special visions) all your movement would cost double?

The poor visiblity is cutting you down to 2 squares of movement only giving you one square. It does not take 4 squares of movement. Now if you have visibility problems, and it is difficult terrain then you would need to use 4 squares of movement.

[wraithstrike]

Also the devs only like to have one comment FAQ'd per thread.
Instead of FAQ'ing every potential question see what the board members can't help you with, and then create a thread for the one question you have.

[_Ozy_]

wraithstrike wrote:

doc the grey wrote:

S!*&, by that definition wouldn't that also mean that if you are traveling through a dark cavern with only a torch to guide you (40 ft vision for no one with special visions) all your movement would cost double?

The poor visiblity is cutting you down to 2 squares of movement only giving you one square. It does not take 4 squares of movement. Now if you have visibility problems, and it is difficult terrain then you would need to use 4 squares of movement.

Er, no, your movement is only hampered if you can't see in front of you. If you can see up to 40' away, your movement doesn't cost double.

[wraithstrike]

_Ozy_ wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

doc the grey wrote:

S!*&, by that definition wouldn't that also mean that if you are traveling through a dark cavern with only a torch to guide you (40 ft vision for no one with special visions) all your movement would cost double?

The poor visiblity is cutting you down to 2 squares of movement only giving you one square. It does not take 4 squares of movement. Now if you have visibility problems, and it is difficult terrain then you would need to use 4 squares of movement.

Er, no, your movement is only hampered if you can't see in front of you. If you can see up to 40' away, your movement doesn't cost double.

My point was that poor visibility only drops you down to half movement, not quater movement. That is why I mentioned poor visiblity, and never mentioned the number of feet.

Yes, I agree that if you have a torch that you have normal movement in the situation.

[doc the grey]

_Ozy_ wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

doc the grey wrote:

S!*&, by that definition wouldn't that also mean that if you are traveling through a dark cavern with only a torch to guide you (40 ft vision for no one with special visions) all your movement would cost double?

The poor visiblity is cutting you down to 2 squares of movement only giving you one square. It does not take 4 squares of movement. Now if you have visibility problems, and it is difficult terrain then you would need to use 4 squares of movement.

Er, no, your movement is only hampered if you can't see in front of you. If you can see up to 40' away, your movement doesn't cost double.

Actually by RAW the rules seem to state the contrary. It states that if you can't see further than 60ft you're in poor visibility which means all squares cost double movement. I mean the rules for Hampered Movement in table 7-7 (CRB pg 172) state you double the movement cost of all squares for poor visibility and the description of poor visibility on page 424 of the CRB pretty clearly states it's any reduction of vision to less than 60ft that puts you in poor and all the examples they give back that up. Fog, snow, and downpours treat as poor visibility because all of them drop your vision distance to less than 60 ft. By that logic a human with a torch is still in pour visibility and at double cost for all movement.

Now personally I think that sounds silly considering the way the game seems to actually use the rules in practice and the way scenarios are written but with the rules as they are presented that practice clashes and gets really squirrely the more you look at it (since it would also mean things like a clouded vision oracle in essence also has the lame curse with none of the benefits until 5th when his vision increases since she can't see farther than 30ft). That sort of discrepancy throws a lot of mechanics up on their end and with a lot of these cases not exactly being corner (clouded vision oracle, party lost in a thick jungle, blind fighter in a cave, etc) this feels like something the dev team needs to look at and close loop holes on or at the very least put all these rules together in the same part of the book and reference them in sections where they are pertinent (like quartering movement for blind characters), rather than put them 252 pages apart. Hell, you can't even find poor visibility or hampered movement listed in their terms glossary in the back of my edition of the book.

[doc the grey]

wraithstrike wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

doc the grey wrote:

S!*&, by that definition wouldn't that also mean that if you are traveling through a dark cavern with only a torch to guide you (40 ft vision for no one with special visions) all your movement would cost double?

The poor visiblity is cutting you down to 2 squares of movement only giving you one square. It does not take 4 squares of movement. Now if you have visibility problems, and it is difficult terrain then you would need to use 4 squares of movement.

Er, no, your movement is only hampered if you can't see in front of you. If you can see up to 40' away, your movement doesn't cost double.

My point was that poor visibility only drops you down to half movement, not quater movement. That is why I mentioned poor visiblity, and never mentioned the number of feet.

Yes, I agree that if you have a torch that you have normal movement in the situation.

The cutting by a quarter/quadrupling movement costs thing is in reference to when multiple hampering effects are in play like say driving rain over muddy ground or being blind in a cave. At those points the hampering multipliers stack not poor visibility as a whole.

Pertinent Line About Stacking Penalties from CRB pg. 170 wrote:

"If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule of doubling.

As for the torch thing as I said above I agree that your movement wouldn't be hampered but as the rules are written that seems to not be the case hence the thread. I want to call attention to this for the dev team and the player base abroad and see if we can get some clarification and edits to the wording here from Paizo to make the rules here both more clear and hopefully remove some of these extra parts it's picked up along the way *glares at the extra nerf this gives clouded vision oracles and torches*.

[bbangerter]

doc the grey wrote:

Actually by RAW the rules seem to state the contrary.

You are taking it out of context. Poor visibility in wilderness travel is 60'. Poor visibility for tactical movement isn't specifically defined (which is a problem), but to run it at that same 60' is nonsensical for reasons already pointed out (clouded vision oracles, torches in dark dungeons, etc).

Personally I just ignore poor visibility for tactical movement because it just isn't designed well. I've gone running in thick fog before, its not a big deal, unless I don't know the area very well in which case it would be, and I wouldn't go running in it.

Aside from the real world example, there are some rules problems.

Poor visibility makes movement cost double.
Being blinded makes movement cost double, or take a DC 10 acrobatics check to move at full speed.

So if I've got poor visibility my only option is half speed movement. But if I'm blinded and good at acrobatics I can move at full speed? What?!? At minimum poor visibility ought to at least allow an acrobatics check to move at full speed, and the DC should probably even be easier than the 10 DC for being blinded.

[wraithstrike]

doc the grey wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

doc the grey wrote:

S!*&, by that definition wouldn't that also mean that if you are traveling through a dark cavern with only a torch to guide you (40 ft vision for no one with special visions) all your movement would cost double?

The poor visiblity is cutting you down to 2 squares of movement only giving you one square. It does not take 4 squares of movement. Now if you have visibility problems, and it is difficult terrain then you would need to use 4 squares of movement.

Er, no, your movement is only hampered if you can't see in front of you. If you can see up to 40' away, your movement doesn't cost double.

Actually by RAW the rules seem to state the contrary. It states that if you can't see further than 60ft you're in poor visibility which means all squares cost double movement.

I already address that in my very first post.

That is only for the purposes of determining if you are going to get lost. There is no general rule for impaired visbility.

The main topic is "getting lost".
If you look at the PRD and the Core Rule Book the main heading and the subheading tell you when to apply certain rules.

There is no general application of "impaired visiblity" outside of the "getting lost" section.

[wraithstrike]

You would have to qualify this as a problem that people actually have trouble understanding in order for it to get an FAQ. So far mostly everyone seems to have no trouble with it, but if you bump it tomorrow(later today) we will see how others look at it.

[Trekkie90909]

Again, there is nothing about poor visibility which makes movement cost double. The rules only say that it can make movement cost double--only very specific types of poor visibility (i.e. a light level of darkness, which causes creatures without darkvision or the see in darkness ability to be treated as blinded) actually do restrict movement, most do not.

[The Sword]

I agree, the poor visibility text is for overland travel and the length of time it takes for travelling longer distances - Lost = double time to get there.

You don't get lost moving 40 ft across a room.

Also the rule for blindness doesn't apply a movement multiplier like muddy ground or undergrowth, it says if you move more than half speed you need to make a balance check. There is no doubling up of multipliers.

For instance if a halfling with movement is blinded he can move 10ft without the balance check and 20 feet with it, as a single move action. If wading through difficult terrain he can move 5ft without the check or 10ft with it. There is no increased terrain cost, just a check (a relatively easy one for anyone investing any time in it)