Initiating combat and surprise rounds


GM Discussion

Silver Crusade 1/5

So. The situation was this:
The party goes through a jungle and approaches a swarm.
The scenario is contradictory at this point - it states that the party can go around or wait for the swarm to calm down. The swarm tactics, however, say that " ...they attack the PCs as soon as they come near enough to witness the scene."
I decided that they see the swarm crawl around and that it doesn't immediatly attack.
They pull out some alchemist's fires and go closer to throw them. I ask them how close they want to go, deciding that if they approach closer than 4 squares the swarm attacks. They go far enough to reach that square and the swarm attacks.
Initiative gets rolled, the swarm wins, it moves first.

Long story short: No major damage, nobody poisoned, swarm gets killed farily quickly (partly because I messed up the splash weapon rules - I thought you only needed to hit the swarm's square instead of the swarm itself), a bit of healing required afterwards. The scenario overall was also well received, so this is not about some day-ruining argument or anything.

However. A few players were fairly unhappy about the swarm acting first because they clearly approached it with the intent of striking first once it reacts. In the end I called "even or odd?", they called even, I rolled odd, so the ruling stood and the swarm moved first. No hard feelings on either side. Though I got thinking: How would you have ruled in this instance?

My reasoning: You cannot decide that all of a sudden you're in combat. They inched nearer and nearer but were still surprised at how quickly and suddenly the swarm attacked them (displayed by initiative).
Their reasoning: "Implied" initative, they moved & readied their action to throw constantly. Thus they should've been able to throw once it was the swarm's turn.
I feel like this reasoning is a difficult one - it opens the door for things like "We approach the guys working at the docks. The fighter and the paladin ready an action: If they turn out to be aggressive we want to hit them as soon as they enter an adjacent square.", making initiative useless for fights where both combatants are aware of each other.

So...your thoughts?
(I'm not sure whether this should be in the rules question forum, but because it strongly interacts with some PFS scenarios [and because we're bound by the tactics noted] I feel like it should be here.)


If you search for 'readying an action outside of combat' you will see a great deal of threads talking about it.

My take: A big part of the issue is that in the transition from 3.5 to pathfinder, a vital sentence was lost from the ready actions text: "Don't allow players to use the ready action outside of combat." (presumably implying you also shouldn't use them outside of combat yourself).

Initiative is absolutely the right call to make here. If they were sneaking up on an enemy, weapons at the ready to attack as soon as the enemy showed signs of noticing them, they would probably get a surprise round. If both creatures are aware of the other, it's a normal combat scenario. If the swarm beats their initiative, it strikes quickly before they have a chance to react.

Otherwise you get in the ridiculous situation where everyone is constantly readying actions every round outside of combat.

Silver Crusade 1/5

Blakmane wrote:
If you search for 'readying an action outside of combat' you will see a great deal of threads talking about it.

I will look those up, thanks. This was one of the few cases where I had no idea what to search for.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

The general consensus is that you cannot ready outside of combat.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

You've got a bit of a grey area here because - as you note - the scenario isn't clear.

I'm one of those who strongly believes that players cannot ready actions when they are not in initiative.

True stories of things people have tried to ready in games I am GMing:

-"I ready an action to drink my mutagen as soon as we roll initiative."
-"I have a move of 30, so as we walk along this two mile-long trail I continually move 30' then ready an action to magic missile if I see a goblin."
-"I take the lead and each round ready an action to cast resilient sphere if I am attacked."

However as you alluded to in your title I believe in giving players a surprise round if they take actions that could conceivably result in surprise.

For your situation, I would ask the players how closely they want to try to sneak up before initiating combat. My rule of thumb for "sneaking up" is to have the NPCs make a perception check (modified by distance and conditions) vs. the PCs stealth. One check per the slowest PC move (20 or 30 feet). If the perception beats at least half the PCs (or they decide they are close enough) we move into initiative. Every PC makes one more stealth check and the NPCs make one more perception. All the PCs and any NPC who beats the lowest stealth gets to act in the surprise round.

That's my own way of handling it, there's no fixed way to do it (so no "right" or "wrong" way). Different checks if they're trying something creative other than stealth.

Scarab Sages 4/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

I think the OP did the right thing.

In this case, both parties are aware of each other - there is no surprise due to Perception / Stealth.

I have usually allowed Surprise action for parties that "surprise" attack people during negotiation - usually as opposed Bluff/Sense Motive.

In this case, the GM had decided the swarm would attack if the party closed to a certain distance (this is essentially the Swarm's +infinity sense motive to notice a surprise attack, vs. a negative infinity sense motive outside that range).

If the PCs had launched alchemist fire from a farther distance, would you have given them a surprise action? if the answer is "yes", then I don't think the players should complain.

If the players need an explanation for "how the swarm went first", you can thematically explain it as "you cautiously approached ready to throw at a certain point, but it jumped at you before you could close the range." or "you stumbled at the last moment and couldn't throw the alchemist fire before it could attack".

Sometimes players assume they can auto win because they think they are more clever than the rules (or the monster). Remind them the dice sometimes get a vote (as does the enemy).

my2c

4/5

If the party was stealthing, I would have the swarm make a Perception check to notice them. If not, I think you did the right thing.

You gave the players the chance to act before the swarm. Even if you did roll initiative at that point, the swarm still has a chance to notice them and react. If their readied actions were "I throw the alchemist's fire when I get to 10 ft," the swarm moving could easily mess up their trigger.

As for how the swarm went first, it's basically "It noticed you sneaking up on it, and it beat you on initiative.

The Exchange 5/5

If they are not allowed to ready actions outside of INIT... then they would have to be moving in INIT order (moving up one at a time) in order to ready actions.

If they ARE allowed to ready actions outside of INIT, then so can the swarm. And if the swarm had a readied action, then all readied actions would trigger and need to be resolved... in INIT order.

SO, if the players readied to throw (trigger: when the swarm attacked) as they moved up, and the swarm readied to attack (trigger: when the PCs reach point XX) - then resolve all readied actions in INIT order. I.E. the swarm goes before some of the PCs.

NOW - I guess the players COULD have said/done something like this...
(alternate set-up, players detect the swarm at some distance, say 100'))

Player A: "We enter Init at this point - starting the rounds at 100 feet."
Player A: "5' step and ready to throw an Alkali Flask if the swarm starts moving toward us."
Player B: "5' step and ready to throw an Acid Flask if the swarm starts moving toward us."
Player C: "5' step and ready to throw an Alchemist Fire if the swarm starts moving toward us."
Player D: "5' step and ready to throw Burning Hands if the swarm starts moving toward us."
Player A; "and we repeat that until the swarm does something or Player D get's to within 15'."

But many judges I know would not allow this at their table ("not at MY table!") - not wanting to give up "control" of the encounter. In fact many would just start the encounter at a distance of slightly less then the movement of the swarm (say 30'?).

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Interesting topic, and circumstances like this have come up before in both my home game and in PFS. This is one of those situations where the structured nature of the rules as written don't allow easily for an IRL series of events to happen 'logically'.

I think the first thing you should decide is why the swarm doesn't attack until they get within 4 squares...? Because it isn't aware of them, or because it is, and isn't threatened by them?
If the swarm hasn't seen them, treat it like an ambush; roll for stealth to get to the square they want to, then roll for initiative and give all the PCs that weren't noticed a surprise round in order of initiative to throw their flasks. The continue as normal.

If the swarm isn't threatened by them, ask yourself what they need to do for it to be threatened. I assume it's proximity (rather than the swarm recognising pots of alchemists fire! ;) ) and again roll stealth to see if it notices them, or maybe even bluff(?)

Though there's no 'readying outside of combat' rule, we all know there is implicitly or ambushes could never be resolved using the Pathfinder rules.

In summary, at my table I would make it a surprise round.

The Exchange 5/5

Nevarre wrote:

Interesting topic, and circumstances like this have come up before in both my home game and in PFS. This is one of those situations where the structured nature of the rules as written don't allow easily for an IRL series of events to happen 'logically'.

I think the first thing you should decide is why the swarm doesn't attack until they get within 4 squares...? Because it isn't aware of them, or because it is, and isn't threatened by them?
If the swarm hasn't seen them, treat it like an ambush; roll for stealth to get to the square they want to, then roll for initiative and give all the PCs that weren't noticed a surprise round in order of initiative to throw their flasks. The continue as normal.

If the swarm isn't threatened by them, ask yourself what they need to do for it to be threatened. I assume it's proximity (rather than the swarm recognising pots of alchemists fire! ;) ) and again roll stealth to see if it notices them, or maybe even bluff(?)

Though there's no 'readying outside of combat' rule, we all know there is implicitly or ambushes could never be resolved using the Pathfinder rules.

In summary, at my table I would make it a surprise round.

bolding mine:

Could you please expand on this part - as I do not think this is how the rules work. I was under the impression that Perception should be used to determine encounter distances (how close the two groups when one detects the other). Then the encounter is resolved from there (perhaps going into INIT, etc.).

Shadow Lodge 4/5

nosig wrote:
Nevarre wrote:

Interesting topic, and circumstances like this have come up before in both my home game and in PFS. This is one of those situations where the structured nature of the rules as written don't allow easily for an IRL series of events to happen 'logically'.

I think the first thing you should decide is why the swarm doesn't attack until they get within 4 squares...? Because it isn't aware of them, or because it is, and isn't threatened by them?
If the swarm hasn't seen them, treat it like an ambush; roll for stealth to get to the square they want to, then roll for initiative and give all the PCs that weren't noticed a surprise round in order of initiative to throw their flasks. The continue as normal.

If the swarm isn't threatened by them, ask yourself what they need to do for it to be threatened. I assume it's proximity (rather than the swarm recognising pots of alchemists fire! ;) ) and again roll stealth to see if it notices them, or maybe even bluff(?)

Though there's no 'readying outside of combat' rule, we all know there is implicitly or ambushes could never be resolved using the Pathfinder rules.

In summary, at my table I would make it a surprise round.

bolding mine:

Could you please expand on this part - as I do not think this is how the rules work. I was under the impression that Perception should be used to determine encounter distances (how close the two groups when one detects the other). Then the encounter is resolved from there (perhaps going into INIT, etc.).

From the rules for Surprise:

Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

As per the surprise rules, the swarm is not aware of all the PCs, combat starts, some or all of the PCs get a surprise round.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha

...presumably all the PCs are aware of the swarm they are ambushing?

and if the swarm notices any of them there would not be a surprise round at all.

5/5 5/5 *

My interpretation of events:

1) Players got a surprise round, spent that surprise round moving into position.
2) First regular round happens, swarm wins initiative, swarm goes first.
3) Players were put off because initiative rolls were collected between 1) and 2) instead of before 1).

Dark Archive 1/5

The situation described in the first post seems legit to me. The scenario specifically calls for the swarm to attack if the players attract it's attention, aka once it knows they're there. They could have gone around it, thus bypassing the encounter. They could have tossed a flask of alchemist fire from further away then the GM decided it's aggro radius is, and probably killing the swarm before it can react. They were given a chance to either avoid or start in a favorable position. Instead they got too close.

Seems perfectly fair to me.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

"You were trying to get the jump on the swarm, but it reacted more suddenly than you expected."

I fully agree with the OP's handling.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

I get players occasionally that say they are going to do 'X' thing (where 'X' thing is something surprising like walking up to a guard carrying your sword in a surrender position then suddenly turning it around and attacking) and expecting a free surprise round out of it. My response is, "Okay, make a Bluff check." The player then looks at me confused as to why he doesn't get a free surprise round. I explain, "You are trying to fool the guard into thinking you aren't going to attack him, right? So make a Bluff check." It's weird how the same person who believes they can't sneak up on someone without a Stealth check thinks they can fool someone without a Bluff check.

I may give a player circumstance modifiers, but I have always felt it was wrong to give the monsters auto-surprise rounds (even though some authors disagree with me), so I am not going to give that to the players either. Almost every creature (with the possible exception of animated objects) has some ability to sense hostile intent before hostile action is taken. So almost every circumstance should allow a Perception or Sense Motive check to avoid surprise (albeit, in some cases the DC may be so high it is effectively an auto surprise). And it should be possible for almost any creature to react to your hostile intent before you actually get to make your intended hostile action (which is why your should roll for initiative even if you were the one that suddenly initiated the hostilities).

5/5 5/55/55/5

Players: Ok everyone , on the count of three
Buzzz buzz buzz buzz buzzz*
One Two...
Buzz buzz buzzz**
AHHHHHHHH MY FACE!!!!!!!!!

* Ready guys? On two

*One two, we can't count any higher! GO GO GO!

Community / Forums / Organized Play / GM Discussion / Initiating combat and surprise rounds All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.