If I cast a first level spell that has been quickened (so using a 5th level slot). Can I choose to cast the spell at caster level 1 or do I need to cast the spell at CL 9+?
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
A quickened spell takes up a higher level "slot" but it is still a 1st level spell.
Looks like you should be able to do it as a "level 1" caster if you wanted to.
Why would you would be my next question however.
It sets an interesting precedent for magic item creation for things like wands or scrolls. You could craft the item at a lower caster level but still apply meta-magic keeping the price down. I'm not entirely sure as to the usefulness of such an application though. Perhaps a with a scroll-master wizard cheap maximized and empowered fireball scrolls.
There is no doubt whatsoever that you can create a spell trigger or spell completion magic item at a lower caster level (provided said caster level is still high enough to cast the highest level spell within the item in question).
For example, a 10th-level wizard could make a CL 10 magic missile scroll, or he could make ten CL 1 magic missile scrolls for the same cost.
Applying metamagic to such items during creation increases their price however, as you must still have a minimum caster level high enough for the modified spell level.
For example, the above wizard could create a quickened CL 10 magic missile scroll, but it would cost five times as much as the normal CL 10 magic missile scroll (since it is now treated as a 5th-level spell not just for spell slots, but also for the purposes of cost/pricing rather than a 1st-level spell--note though that it is still considered a 1st-level spell for other respects, such as its inability to penetrate a globe of invulnerability).
A scroll master uses the scroll's caster level or his own, whichever is better. The scroll's minimum caster level still needs to be high enough to cover the modified spell level (so a maximized fireball, which uses a 6th-level spell slot, would require a minimum CL 11). A 16th-level scroll master could use said fireball scroll at CL 16.
I hope that helps.
There is no doubt whatsoever that you can create a spell trigger or spell completion magic item at a lower caster level (provided said caster level is still high enough to cast the highest level spell within the item in question).
For example, a 10th-level wizard could make a CL 10 magic missile scroll, or he could make ten CL 1 magic missile scrolls for the same cost.
No, not the same cost, since caster level is part of the price formula.
The formula for scrolls is:
12.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.
So a level 1 Magic Missile scroll costs 12.5gp to make, while a level 10 Magic Missile scroll costs 125gp to make.
The table presented in the "Creating Scrolls" section assumes minimum caster level.
Your example with the quickened CL 10 Magic Missile was correct, it is 5x the price, but to be clear, that means it costs 625gp to make that scroll.
(Oddly, I don't think it even works - it's still a standard action to use that Quickened Magic Missile).
It sets an interesting precedent for magic item creation for things like wands or scrolls. You could craft the item at a lower caster level but still apply meta-magic keeping the price down. I'm not entirely sure as to the usefulness of such an application though. Perhaps a with a scroll-master wizard cheap maximized and empowered fireball scrolls.
I agree with RD, according to RAW you must create the item at the minimum caster level that YOU would be required to be to cast the quickened spell.
You can create it at a higher caster level if you want, but not at a lower one.
Yes I just used quicken as an example. But it is conventionally useless for a scroll.
The idea of the item's CL needing to be a high enough level to cast the modified spell level is intuitive to me but that does not seem to be what the rules say.
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
If the spell is operating at it's normal level in all regards except for the spell slot being expended then shouldn't I be able to cast it at a lower CL meaning the minimum CL for a metamagic'd item is lower than normal?
If the spell is operating at it's normal level in all regards except for the spell slot being expended then shouldn't I be able to cast it at a lower CL meaning the minimum CL for a metamagic'd item is lower than normal?
This isn't quite accurate. See this FAQ.
So a level 1 Magic Missile scroll costs 12.5gp to make, while a level 10 Magic Missile scroll costs 125gp to make.
Exactly right! And ten caster level 1 magic missile scrolls would cost 125gp, just like a single caster level 10 magic missile scroll, as was previously shown in my example above.
This isn't quite accurate. See this FAQ.
If the spell is operating at it's normal level in all regards except for the spell slot being expended then shouldn't I be able to cast it at a lower CL meaning the minimum CL for a metamagic'd item is lower than normal?
Ah excellent, so the spell is whatever level is least advantageous for purposes of things. Thanks!
Help me out here, I'm seeing the cost of a Wizard created wand as, "The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750 gp", according to the PRD. I don't play PFS, is it different in PFS for some reason?
thanks
Exactly right! And ten caster level 1 magic missile scrolls would cost 125gp, just like a single caster level 10 magic missile scroll, as was previously shown in my example above.
So a level 1 Magic Missile scroll costs 12.5gp to make, while a level 10 Magic Missile scroll costs 125gp to make.
You're right. My bad.
I probably read "ten" as "teh" - I blame my old grognard eyes...
Help me out here, I'm seeing the cost of a Wizard created wand as, "The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750 gp", according to the PRD. I don't play PFS, is it different in PFS for some reason?
I don't play PFS either, but I don't think they get to create their own items. They just buy the ones in the book based on their PFS reward system.
As for general rules, your formula is right, but you're not forced to use your caster level for everything you make. In some cases there would be NO benefit but the price would still go up. For example, a level 5 cleric making a Wand of Cure Light Wounds at CL 5 would produce a wand that heals 1d8+5 HP per charge and would cost 3,75gp, but a level 10 cleric would create a Cure Light Wounds wand at CL 10 that heals 1d8+5 HP per charge (exactly the same) but costs 7,500gp (twice the price).
But the actual rule lets both of them select any caster level they want as long as it is high enough to cast the spell and not higher than their actual caster level (although I've seen arguments that they CAN create items above their caster level - but I don't agree).
And if that spell has metamagic on it, then the CL they pick must be high enough to cast the spell at its adjusted level.
right, I was more concerned about the "12.5GP" vs. "750GP" multiplier. If there is some kind of change in the actual rules for this, I'm interested to know where the errata is. or is it just some number they got from PFS or out of thin air.
12.5 is for scrolls (That's the materials cost to make them; they sell for 25gp x SL x CL).
750 is the retail price for wands that have 50 charges (the materials cost to make them is 375 x SL x CL). That works out to 15gp per charge as the sale price, cheaper per spell than scrolls are (15 vs. 25).
right, I was more concerned about the "12.5GP" vs. "750GP" multiplier. If there is some kind of change in the actual rules for this, I'm interested to know where the errata is. or is it just some number they got from PFS or out of thin air.
Read it again. The 12.5 is for creating scrolls, not wands. The 750 is for determining buying price of wands (creating price is half that).
gotcha, I missed that it was for scrolls, not wands... thanks.