This has come up in a recent game... Could a universalist 3rd lvl wizard with create wondrous item make a toilet that could "flush" thus cleaning itself? How much would it cost to make and what could be done to make it as cheaply as possible? Have tried plugging in the rules and come up with roughly in the range of 30k, which seems a little high.
Pricing of magic items is subject to DM discretion. Usually this means adjusting prices upwards when players find a too-good enchantment to stick on an item (e.g. True Strike)
In this case, I would adjudicate a much lower price, perhaps something in the 1k range.
Making a magical toilet via "craft wonderuous items" as a magical item...meh I dunno. If all you really want is a toilet that magically stays clean...
Step 1) Craft/obtain normal toilet
Step 2) You need some sort of magical prestidigitation effect (it can clean objects) that activates on each flush.
How much does it cost? Whatever your GM thinks is appropriate.
Cloak of the hedge wizard gives prestidigitation along with another cantrip at will and another spell once per day for 2500 gp. Gloves of the Cheating Apprentice give mage hand and prestidigitation for 2200 gp. For prestidigitation alone, i wouldn't go more than 2000 gp. Even that is probably high.
They don't flush, but mithral chamberpots are extremely easy to clean. And very classy!
On-topic, I would taken Claxon's reasoning further by noting that those items can cast prestidigitation to do anything it can do, while the toilet only gets the one use, so it should receive a considerable discount. 1000 gp as Volkard estimated seems about right.
I would think that while prestidigitation would indeed be able to clean your loo, in and of itself it couldn't do anything more than move the waste somewhere else, it certainly can't destroy it. Adding in a 'purify food and water' effect, not to make it edible, but to make it soil, like after a good composting process would be necessary if you don't want you camp area covered with discarded poo. Although the hilarity of activating your toilet to clean itself and simultaneously covering the rest of your party in feces does appear to my inner 12 yo.
All that said, I think 1000 gp is plenty for something that almost all games is sensibly going to be off camera anyway. Unless you are going to try to introduce some game effects for ineffective sanitation systems, it isn't really anything more than flavor.
I would think that while prestidigitation would indeed be able to clean your loo, in and of itself it couldn't do anything more than move the waste somewhere else, it certainly can't destroy it. Adding in a 'purify food and water' effect, not to make it edible, but to make it soil, like after a good composting process would be necessary if you don't want you camp area covered with discarded poo. Although the hilarity of activating your toilet to clean itself and simultaneously covering the rest of your party in feces does appear to my inner 12 yo.
All that said, I think 1000 gp is plenty for something that almost all games is sensibly going to be off camera anyway. Unless you are going to try to introduce some game effects for ineffective sanitation systems, it isn't really anything more than flavor.
I was thinking of introducing some game effects for ineffective sanitation. I was thinking about the party encountering giant ants that use pheromones and instinctive husbandry techniques the way that ants do to control a Colossal Black Pudding. The Pudding lives under a village of Humans who have no idea that it's there. They just think they are blessed that wherever they dig a landfill or latrine, they never seem to have to dig another one. They are bothered by how their village is infested with Giant Ants, though, and they will undoubtedly ask the party to help exterminate them. If the party starts to succeed, the ants will no longer be able to hold the Colossal Black Pudding in check...
If I were looking for a self-contained magical toilet's prerequisite spells, I'd probably land on create water and prestidigitation. The spells themselves won't cut it, but they seem thematically appropriate.
My advice don't use prestidigitation use a combination of water flow from a decanter of endless water, a waste disposal of s bag of devouring (down the pipes) and the clean spell to keep the toilet itself in good shape.
EDIT
Clean spell may need a bit of modification to work on something other than dirt but it should work http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/rite-publishing-3rd-party-sp ells/c/clean/ one decanter and one bag can supply for the needs of an entire building quite easily. I think modern toilets were invented around the 1800s and Golarion has guns and a source of advanced tech for our era. Even without that you can have one the works on a constant flow of water.
EDIT 2
Or if you want a more reliable method of destruction use a sphere of annihilation. I'd like to use one for my own crystal tower but since it moves and the sphere doesn't (unless you consciously direct it and even then it's a different speed) it'd just cut a hole in the base/walls of my tower and be left behind. However a stationary base wouldn't have that problem. Of course you could also make a permanent portal to another plane and empty the waste out there but that might annoy the locals. Which is why I go with a 7 bags of holding set up. I could probably get by with one but I like the redundancy since they have a 10% chance of instantly consuming everything in them and the a cumulative 5% chance per hour after that.
Part of your problem is the assumption of technological know how... flushing toilets came around 1600 to 1775 and require a sewage system with venting to work properly. In the 1850s things took off and modern sanitation started...
I don't know that Absalom is that sophisticated. The sewers in scenarios have been large open affairs that require gravity to power (water running downhill). There were pipes in them but I haven't seen a pumping station on any map. The reason not to have large open sewers is a) sewer gas, and b) suction is your friend.
apart from that, making a toilet is relatively easy. You need a plaster cast/mold and some slip(watery clay/casting material). The kiln is the hard part. How hot a kiln can get and controlling the atmosphere in the kiln is a measure of technological sophistication. Waterproof glaze is generally ground sand and specific metallic salts. What makes a toilet work is the brass and rubberized/silicone components, pressurized water, and a sewer system...
The flip side of that is this is presumably a magical toilet which invalidates a lot of the problems associated with modern technology. To break down your post . . .
Part of your problem is the assumption of technological know how... flushing toilets came around 1600 to 1775 and require a sewage system with venting to work properly.
For a city wide or similar situation yes but for a mage or small party of adventures as indicated you really only need it to go from point A to point C with point A being your water source e.g. a decanter of endless water which would continue pumping out water providing both an internal supply of water possibly gravity fed if located at the top of a stronghold or even a pumped one depending on how you rule the water it produces. Point C being the point of destruction which could be a relatively cheap and simple bag of devouring placed in a room in the basement of your stronghold where everything washes to and is steadily devoured. Other options exist to for putting in that room like an Otyugh.
In the 1850s things took off and modern sanitation started...
I don't know that Absalom is that sophisticated. The sewers in scenarios have been large open affairs that require gravity to power (water running downhill). There were pipes in them but I haven't seen a pumping station on any map. The reason not to have large open sewers is a) sewer gas, and b) suction is your friend.
I admit I'm not sure how suction works on our local toilet but I would imagine as long as your focused on a local situation e.g. one stronghold it would be possible to manage even if you can only work with the very old flush toilets that rely on gravity and a steady flow of water rather than our modern ones.
apart from that, making a toilet is relatively easy. You need a plaster cast/mold and some slip(watery clay/casting material). The kiln is the hard part. How hot a kiln can get and controlling the atmosphere in the kiln is a measure of technological sophistication. Waterproof glaze is generally ground sand and specific metallic salts. What makes a toilet work is the brass and rubberized/silicone components, pressurized water, and a sewer system...
This I imagine would be the biggest difference in that magically speaking a cleaning spell would take of not just the visible dirt but all the small microbes and germs that would otherwise be embedded in a non waterproof toilet. Even a simple stone seat would handle the situation quite well till over centuries erosion from the water flow wore it away and if you made your toilet out of something more resistant e.g. mithral or some other hard substance it could last indefinately. Even where you to deal with plain stone a repair spell could be embeded as well so pushing the button rather than flushing it triggered a clean and repair feature on the toilet x times a day.
Part of your problem is the assumption of technological know how... flushing toilets came around 1600 to 1775 and require a sewage system with venting to work properly. In the 1850s things took off and modern sanitation started...
I don't know that Absalom is that sophisticated. The sewers in scenarios have been large open affairs that require gravity to power (water running downhill). There were pipes in them but I haven't seen a pumping station on any map. The reason not to have large open sewers is a) sewer gas, and b) suction is your friend.
apart from that, making a toilet is relatively easy. You need a plaster cast/mold and some slip(watery clay/casting material). The kiln is the hard part. How hot a kiln can get and controlling the atmosphere in the kiln is a measure of technological sophistication. Waterproof glaze is generally ground sand and specific metallic salts. What makes a toilet work is the brass and rubberized/silicone components, pressurized water, and a sewer system...
Romans had self cleaning latrines 300 AD. Aqueducts supplied water, the water flushed out the latrines.
fired glazed ceramics are quite waterproof, durable, and resistant to erosion and microbes. That's why it is used to make toilets, sinks, dishware, and containers for liquids. The glass coating(glaze) is also easy to clean. Pottery lasts for the ages and provides insight into long dead human societies.
lol... the roman latrines leave much to be desired and wasted a lot of water. Roman slaves with brooms were required in ancient sewers to keep the flow going.
One of the issues with sewer systems is handling/treating the sewage and then disposing of it. Many modern cities near coasts/rivers dump it into the ocean/rivers and let nature deal with it. Only a few recycle the waste stream into something more useful.
Many of the thought experiments here are like that. They just dump the "problem" as it takes effort and thought to provide lifecycle management.
An interesting small solution is a composting toilet. I'll add that hookworms and other parasites are a known issue.
sure, you can make a magical toilet in the game. Magic items are quite expensive as spells are crafted into items. The easiest might be Prestidigitation on a chamber pot to keep it clean and sweet smelling. The pot is emptied into a compost pile in a gardening environment or collected into a community compost pile or dump.
Disintegrate (6th) works it is just gonna cost more and only activate once a day (otherwise it gets super expensive).
Plane Shift (5th) is cheaper but just dumps your problem elsewhere. If you find the right place they might want your problem... the focus component might get interesting.
Bags of Devouring (120000gp!) want living flesh and will nibble on bums.
It's probably best left to magical research to come up with a first level transmutation spell "clean sweep" that handles it on a per use incident that affects up to CstrLev cuft of soft garbage/refuse with hardness 0 worth less than 1 copper piece per cuft (to prevent abuse).
Wow I missed that had the impression bags of devouring were a LOT cheaper considering even the most expensive bag of holding is only 10,000 gold and that's for a type IV whereas the bag of devouring functions as a type I.
Like Senko mentioned, certain technological inventions came about from need and necessity. For instance, would the Romans have spent all that time and effort building aqueducts if they had create water? Maybe, maybe not, depends on the size and volume they needed and how prevalent the most basic acolytes and priests were. Most likely, your average, medieval wizard would just use unseen servant to empty and clean out chamberpots. The end.
Certainly if you need a more complicated disposal system, because you live in a cave or enclosed space... they probably would have developed a cantrip that disposes of waste (manure, feces, urine, etc.) directly with no quibbling (ie. does prestidigitation do this? It does so many things, it must do everything!). Dispose Waste, 0-level, 1 cubic foot of waste, No more than 1 cubic foot per caster level per day (to keep unlimited cantrip casting from wrecking your GM's carefully constructed sewage encounters. Done.
Personal opinion:
Most mages design their own spells to deal with their own problems (and since they're personal and typically deal with piddling problems, they don't end up in spellbooks or wide circulation). If a caster is a gardener, they'll have a dedicated spell for moving anthills or charming them. A wizard who doesn't like the daily chore of shaving will have a spell that prevents facial hair growth for x days/level. True arcanists develop, research, and design because they love the Art and the challenge, whether their spells reach the wide world or not.
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In answer to your question; could a 3rd level caster create a flush toilet? That depends on how complex the toilet is. I mean, if you had a toilet that functioned as a modern one, where the water levels are maintained in a tank and a bowl and the suction and flow of the water moves it down into the pipes and sewer (or just the nearby river, lake, or moat ... well.... of course you can. You don't even need to be a caster for that. More likely, the magic item would just be a chamberpot that cleaned and emptied itself with unseen servant or that just calcified/petrified/solidified waste into a non-smelling, easier to dispose of form, etc. They wouldn't make something that needed adding water, flushing the water, requiring piping to dispose of it, cleaning it, refilling it. That would just go from Point A to Point C.
However, if your game absolutely needs to have a flush toilet. I'd say it would require create waterunseen servant, CL 1 (maybe 2 if you want 4 gallons per flush, but 2 gallons is probably enough). Maybe 5 ranks of Craft (Sculpting) if you require a special porcelain 'receptacle', and that should have an additional cost added for the receptacle, whether you allow it to be special materials or not. It would probably cost between 1,000 gp and 2,000 gp, not counting the receptacle.
Certainly, a pot that you just toss out your window onto passing PCs is much cheaper, but it's probably still better than building a whole sewer system just for yourself (maybe, you can hire a lot of diggers and even an architect pretty cheap, depending on how complicated you want it). If your city does have its own waste disposal setup, even if it's just an open trench along the streets... then having a pipe running from your water closet to the gutter would probably cost 5 to 10 gp and you could just have a water bucket to 'flush' it with, in which case, having a magical bucket that fills itself with water makes more sense because, at least with that, after dumping dumping the water down the toilet, it fills up and you can wash your hands... or wash your hands then dump it, whatever order you prefer. I think that kind of solution and problem-solving is probably more in line with how people would normally think, rather than designing a more complex, convoluted system or magical item.
But if I already have a bag of devouring it's still OK to poop in it, right? As long as I keep my buttocks a few inches up?
Oh certainly. But you have a 90% chance of nothing happening, meaning you've got a sack with poo in it until you next have to go. Then a 40% chance of having a sack with even more poo in it every time. Even when swallowed, while the rules don't say more than the items it doesn't want to eat get spewed into another plane or elsewhere... a GM could theoretically rule that those expulsions are at points where other orifices (ie. other bags of devouring) may be located. So... maybe too much sewage and the creature vomits (perfectly reasonable), so you might think that getting covered in your own filth is bad enough... worse if it is because of someone else doing it and your orifice happens to be one of the ones that the creature starts vomiting and spewing up. Again... maybe not entirely rules-wise... but this is Advice.
And all that's just in the case of, what we hope is, solid poo. There's no indication that the interior of a bag of holding is any different than the exterior (other than being larger), typically a burlap or cloth. So theoretically (meaning some GMs might make the call) putting liquid in it, like water or urine, will soak out, just like sharp objects might pierce it from the inside. So you might be carrying (or have sitting in your corner) a damp, leaky bag of waste until your portable toilet bag decides to swallow.
This whole thread reminds me of a moment from our Iron Gods campaign.
Iron Gods:
My character was a cleric of Brigh. In the first session, we discovered that the eponymous torch in the town of Torch had gone out. While talking with the councilwoman, I realized that this left nowhere for the townspeople to toss their wagons full of waste. As a cleric of Brigh, I felt it incumbent on me to provide an engineering solution to this problem. As I'm sketching a basic sanitation system out, completely ignoring the quest-giving part of the conversation, I realize the entire table is staring at me... perhaps I was a bit too committed to the bit...
A fancy magic toilet? What, squatting over the wizard's boots is suddenly not gud enough fer ye?! Why else di ye think I take the third watch every time?
more info at wikipedia on sanitation systems at pit latrine, latrine, outhouse... {at this point you can look it up}.
Yes... the romans would have built the aqueducts and roads even if they had spellcasting, that's just practical. Absalom has ports and uses ships rather than create large ring gates or permanent portals. Casting Create Water will cost 5gp (NPC spellcasting) and that's a lot of money for a couple of gallons of water. I'm sure the clerics say it's special water too, "dribbles of Razmir" "tears of Sarenrae", etc. Note that the created water disappears after 24 hrs.
I think the 'stay clean chamber pot' (that must be emptied) using prestidigitation is a practical common solution in the game. Using basic magic item guidelines (*2 slotless);
0th lvl spell(prestidigitation dur: 1hr) 360gp(1/d), 1800gp(cmmd), or 2000gp(continuous).
A more fandangled solution using a created 1st lvl spell 720gp(1/d), 3600gp(cmmd), 4000gp(continuous).
That's a lot of gold to address a simple common inconvenience.
theoretically you could poo into a handy haversack (or similar item) where it will float about separately(?!) in a non-dimensional space and not be on the top until desired. You'll need gloves to pull it out as shaking may not suffice. You could turn out bags of holding. As it's non-magical Mage Hand should suffice in lieu of gloves.
But if I already have a bag of devouring it's still OK to poop in it, right? As long as I keep my buttocks a few inches up?
Oh certainly. But you have a 90% chance of nothing happening, meaning you've got a sack with poo in it until you next have to go. Then a 40% chance of having a sack with even more poo in it every time. Even when swallowed, while the rules don't say more than the items it doesn't want to eat get spewed into another plane or elsewhere... a GM could theoretically rule that those expulsions are at points where other orifices (ie. other bags of devouring) may be located. So... maybe too much sewage and the creature vomits (perfectly reasonable), so you might think that getting covered in your own filth is bad enough... worse if it is because of someone else doing it and your orifice happens to be one of the ones that the creature starts vomiting and spewing up. Again... maybe not entirely rules-wise... but this is Advice.
And all that's just in the case of, what we hope is, solid poo. There's no indication that the interior of a bag of holding is any different than the exterior (other than being larger), typically a burlap or cloth. So theoretically (meaning some GMs might make the call) putting liquid in it, like water or urine, will soak out, just like sharp objects might pierce it from the inside. So you might be carrying (or have sitting in your corner) a damp, leaky bag of waste until your portable toilet bag decides to swallow.
I think the 'stay clean chamber pot' (that must be emptied) using prestidigitation is a practical common solution in the game. Using basic magic item guidelines (*2 slotless);
0th lvl spell(prestidigitation dur: 1hr) 360gp(1/d), 1800gp(cmmd), or 2000gp(continuous).
A more fandangled solution using a created 1st lvl spell 720gp(1/d), 3600gp(cmmd), 4000gp(continuous).
That's a lot of gold to address a simple common inconvenience.
...
there's a use for magical cloth of this type for diapers, swaddling, bandages, bar rags, window wipes, and mops... keeping things clean is a perpetual chore.
A common sight in my campaign are outhouses with a gelatinous cube at the bottom. About once a year the sanitation engineers with pole arms kill the grown up cube (which is not climbing out without help), and replace it with a little cube.
A common sight in my campaign are outhouses with a gelatinous cube at the bottom. About once a year the sanitation engineers with pole arms kill the grown up cube (which is not climbing out without help), and replace it with a little cube.
ummm...:
Table: Climb DCs DC Example Surface or Activity
0 A slope too steep to walk up, or a knotted rope with a wall to brace against.
5 A rope with a wall to brace against, or a knotted rope, or a rope affected by the rope trick spell.
10 A surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship’s rigging.
15 Any surface with adequate handholds and footholds (natural or artificial), such as a very rough natural rock surface or a tree, or an unknotted rope, or pulling yourself up when dangling by your hands.
20 An uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds, such as a typical wall in a dungeon.
21 A typical buildings upper-story wall
25 A typical buildings lower-story wall
25 A rough surface, such as a natural rock wall or a brick wall.
30 An overhang or ceiling with handholds but no footholds, or a typical city wall
— A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical (or inverted) surface cannot be climbed.
Table: Climb DC Modifiers by Surface or Activity Climb DC
Modifier* Example Surface or Activity
–10 Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls.
–5 Climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls.
+5 Surface is slippery.
* These modifiers are cumulative; use all that apply.
so with a 10ft*10ft*10ft pit four opposite walls that's -20 on the climb check! (as a cube can brace on all four at once). Note that a creatures weight does not count against it's movement. Sure, with a STR:10 it's gonna take awhile but what else does the cube have to do?...
time for a 15*15ft wide pit...
it's a cute but dangerous solution. Korvosa has problems with the otyughs now and then. What happens in a heavy rain and the pits fill with water??? 1000s of loose cubes?!
It would have to want to climb out. And why would it want that? It's getting regularly fed...
quibble:
Also, your math is wrong. You don't get -20 for having two opposite walls--the chimney bonus applies once. And there is almost certainly a +5 to the DC for slippery walls. And if it's not fully grown (as stated), then it only gets the corner bonus of -5. So figure a starting DC of 20. That means with a Strength of 10, a Medium-sized baby cube can't make the necessary Climb check except on a 20--and has a very high chance of missing by 5 or more, thus falling.
Actually, you just have the opening too small for it to climb out of, which most privies are. It's one of the reasons gelatinous cubes are used for cleaning dungeon corridors, they can't get through the doorways into the rooms and so can be kept in certain areas.. So, just make a suitable sized hole and cover the top with the outhouse. Even wood (hardness 5) should be proof against its acid. 6 max, divided by 2 shouldn't damage it.
But if I already have a bag of devouring it's still OK to poop in it, right? As long as I keep my buttocks a few inches up?
Oh certainly. But you have a 90% chance of nothing happening, meaning you've got a sack with poo in it until you next have to go. Then a 40% chance of having a sack with even more poo in it every time. Even when swallowed, while the rules don't say more than the items it doesn't want to eat get spewed into another plane or elsewhere... a GM could theoretically rule that those expulsions are at points where other orifices (ie. other bags of devouring) may be located. So... maybe too much sewage and the creature vomits (perfectly reasonable), so you might think that getting covered in your own filth is bad enough... worse if it is because of someone else doing it and your orifice happens to be one of the ones that the creature starts vomiting and spewing up. Again... maybe not entirely rules-wise... but this is Advice.
And all that's just in the case of, what we hope is, solid poo. There's no indication that the interior of a bag of holding is any different than the exterior (other than being larger), typically a burlap or cloth. So theoretically (meaning some GMs might make the call) putting liquid in it, like water or urine, will soak out, just like sharp objects might pierce it from the inside. So you might be carrying (or have sitting in your corner) a damp, leaky bag of waste until your portable toilet bag decides to swallow.
Greater demiplane with a portal as the exit point for your sewer system. Once you have that there are 101 options for removing poo. Permanent fire pit, Permanent summoned creatures in Latrine duty, fill the whole thing with poo earring monsters, etc.
Hmmm a greater Demi-Plane could get expensive (over 20k gp per casting to make it so) still it does over some possibilities and is cheaper than a bag of devouring.
Hmmm fire or negative energy dominant or bountiful with the waste being compost/fertiliser. A permanent plane with fire dominant and minor negative energy dominant should deal with most waste fairly effectively living things (left over food scraps?) crumble to ash and the rest is incinerated you just wouldn't want to visit.
Greater demiplane with a portal as the exit point for your sewer system. Once you have that there are 101 options for removing poo. Permanent fire pit, Permanent summoned creatures in Latrine duty, fill the whole thing with poo earring monsters, etc.
"Hey, Wizard Dave, don't get me wrong, your demiplane is pretty neat, but I'm not so sure about your taste in jewellery..."
Greater demiplane with a portal as the exit point for your sewer system. Once you have that there are 101 options for removing poo. Permanent fire pit, Permanent summoned creatures in Latrine duty, fill the whole thing with poo earring monsters, etc.
"Hey, Wizard Dave, don't get me wrong, your demiplane is pretty neat, but I'm not so sure about your taste in jewellery..."
One archmage's . . . leavings are another culture's treasures.
Self Cleaning Chamber Pot: Typically these items are made from Iron, Steel or Porcelain with some carvings of rural or nature scenes on them. After the chamber pot is used it summons a small or swarm of tiny creatures that are commanded to "swallow the contents" and immediately dismisses the creatures afterwards, carrying the offending material with them to their point of origin.
Some wizards believe such actions are inherently evil, but others dismiss these concerns due to the item summoning only the most minor of creatures. Some even argue that the summoned creature should be grateful for the meal or not being forced to fight.
For Chamber Pots that summon tiny beatles, or creatures that can be summoned with Summon Monster 1 the value would be 2,000gp.
For Elemental Chamber Pots that summon water or earth elementals the cost jumps to 12,000 gp. These kinds of chamber pots are considered more ethical because the typical user isn't able to discern the elemental's emotional distress. These deluxe chamber pots are often made of more expensive materials, such as gold or mithril at an additional materials cost.
You could dodge the ethical issue entirely by summoning dung beetles they'd probably love it. Personally though I'll stick with the dmeiplane of fire disposal method no ethical concerns and its basically just a giant incinerator.
Self Cleaning Chamber Pot: Typically these items are made from Iron, Steel or Porcelain with some carvings of rural or nature scenes on them. After the chamber pot is used it summons a small or swarm of tiny creatures that are commanded to "swallow the contents" and immediately dismisses the creatures afterwards, carrying the offending material with them to their point of origin.
Some wizards believe such actions are inherently evil, but others dismiss these concerns due to the item summoning only the most minor of creatures. Some even argue that the summoned creature should be grateful for the meal or not being forced to fight.
For Chamber Pots that summon tiny beatles, or creatures that can be summoned with Summon Monster 1 the value would be 2,000gp.
For Elemental Chamber Pots that summon water or earth elementals the cost jumps to 12,000 gp. These kinds of chamber pots are considered more ethical because the typical user isn't able to discern the elemental's emotional distress. These deluxe chamber pots are often made of more expensive materials, such as gold or mithril at an additional materials cost.
Do you really expect them to play music for you when emptying your chamber pot?
