GMing advice needed on using a Spell Point System

[Secane]

My current homebrew has my players' characters originating from a world where mana-based magic is the norm.

We are currently using default pathfinder and its Vacian style magic system, but I'm thinking of switching over to a spell point based system to reflect the characters' origins. In which I will be using something similar to d20srd's spell point system, with modifications to make it more balanced and updated from its 3.5 roots.

Question(?) - Is the spell point system viable, balanced and fun to use for a homebrew?

I have no experience with the spell point system and I'm unsure if it has any bugs or problems. Does anyone have any experience with running or playing a game using spell points? Any advice on how to use or run it properly?

*For setting and ease of gameplay reasons, most enemies encountered would still use the vacian/default magic system.

[Secane]

Anyone used spell points before?

[Claxon]

It is possible for it to be balanced, but the costs needs to be exponential as spell levels increase.

You basically need a new class, outside of sorcerer or wizard. Kind of like an arcanist, who knows can have any number of spells in his book, "prepare" them in his mind, and cast them from his mana pool. But in order to make sure it doesn't outshine a sorcerer or a wizard the cost needs to be exponential for increasing spell levels and slot. It should ultimately reduce the number of higher level spells you can cast (if you could cast one 3rd and two 2nd level spells per day as a wizard you would instead have a power pool that might allow you to cast two 3rd level spells that day, but would consume all your mana). I've never worked out the math, but I know I've seen people do it, and it works out fine when you basically force the math that it gives reduced number of spells per day to be cast. The system of figuring out how much each spell slot is worth in mana and how much each level of spell should cost is really the only difficult part.

And this is necessary that it be unfavorable because now there is no restriction on how "spell slots" (now mana) is spent. You can effectively convert 1st level slots of spell power into much higher spells if you want.

[Secane]

What do you think of the d20srd's 3.5 version of spell points. That system does have an exponential spell cost.

I'm thinking of adding extra cost for spell spamming and make use of part of the vitality variant, where using 1/2 your spell points will make you fatigued and if you only have 1/4 left, you will be exhausted.
Would that be enough of a penalty?

Also why a new class? Won't it make sense more to apply this system to the existing classes?

[Claxon]

Secane wrote:

What do you think of the d20srd's 3.5 version of spell points. That system does have an exponential spell cost.

I'm thinking of adding extra cost for spell spamming and make use of part of the vitality variant, where using 1/2 your spell points will make you fatigued and if you only have 1/4 left, you will be exhausted.
Would that be enough of a penalty?

Also why a new class? Won't it make sense more to apply this system to the existing classes?

I can't take a look at work, but I'll try to later.

As for the new class thing, you could make it basically a wizard but I think really the important thing is don't change it for 1 class and have other people of that class in the world who don't use it. But that's my personal opinion.

I feel like you can't have this mana option on wizards and have sorcerers still around because you're giving an even greater level of fluidity to their casting.

So I think either replace arcanist casting with this. Or maybe even sorcerer. Something that requires spells known is probably a good limitation.

[chaoseffect]

Secane wrote:

My current homebrew has my players' characters originating from a world where mana-based magic is the norm.

We are currently using default pathfinder and its Vacian style magic system, but I'm thinking of switching over to a spell point based system to reflect the characters' origins. In which I will be using something similar to d20srd's spell point system, with modifications to make it more balanced and updated from its 3.5 roots.

Question(?) - Is the spell point system viable, balanced and fun to use for a homebrew?

I have no experience with the spell point system and I'm unsure if it has any bugs or problems. Does anyone have any experience with running or playing a game using spell points? Any advice on how to use or run it properly?

*For setting and ease of gameplay reasons, most enemies encountered would still use the vacian/default magic system.

Looking briefly at what you posted, that looks exactly like Dreamscarred Press's Psionics. Perhaps you should build the character as a refluffed Psion or Wilder? That would be easiest for you as minimal houseruling would be necessary.

[Secane]

Hummm... Replacing or swapping to a new class may be a problem.

The party I'm GMing for has a
wizard
Cleric
Druid
Bard
Paladin
Fighter

I got 5 spellcasters in the party. It would be hard to retrain them all...

If any of you could have a look at the d20srd's spell point page link on my first post, what do you think of the vitality variant?
It makes a character fatigue if they use more then half their spell points.
I was thinking that this make sense for the full casters and the Bard, but won't it be tough for the paladin? Who has a much smaller spell pool?

Any further advice is welcomed

[Claxon]

I don't think the vitality system is very useful.

Fatigued means a -2 to strength and dex, and that they cannot run or charge. Usually things a spell caster doesn't care a bit about anyways. Exhausted is about the same, only now the caster moves at half speed, and the penalties increase further. Expect this to not bother the characters it really needs to (arcane casters) and to destroy 3/4 or full BAB divine casters who also try to mix it up in melee. These casters typically aren't the ones that need to be punished for casting, but the system punishes them more than others (like the paladin). Although I guess for the paladin it's merely a matter of picking up exhausted and fatigued mercies and using LOH. However other classes don't really need to be punished for casting either. I think this variant is terrible, and it would be more useful to say that the ability to actually cast spells is diminished in some way rather than their physical abilities.

Now that I've had a chance to look at their spell slot cost, I think it's too low. It needs to be higher in my opinion.

Also, I still think spontaneous casters are strongly getting the shaft.

You're making every prepared caster essentially cast like an arcanist, having potential access to any spell. Meanwhile, spontaneous casters are still shackled to spells known. This system makes it extremely terrible to have original been a spontaneous spellcaster, more so than basic Pathfinder/D&D.

[Flame Effigy]

I'd just take a look at Spheres of Power.

[Cyrad]

That spell point system doesn't look like it was playtested very much.

If you want a point system for all classes, have them work like Psionics.

[Aleron]

Flame Effigy wrote:

I'd just take a look at Spheres of Power.

Have to second this. It's just a really well done system and very close to a more traditional spell point system.

[SanKeshun]

I need to do a little testing, but this is what I decided on when I approached this my own self:

The class in question (which I called Mage) receives some number of spell points. Casting a spell consumes a number of points equal to the level of the spell cast. Then I made up a bunch of numbers for spell points per level, tuning them based on how many times I wanted to let a Mage cast their highest-level spells each time they got a new spell level.
When I was done tweaking (which doesn't mean it's finished), Mages had about 1/2 the spellcasting power of a wizard or sorcerer of comparable level... in terms of total spell-levels per day. Since a Mage could expend most of his energy as high-level spells, this is still roughly equivalent, at least to my mind.

Spell Point Analysis:

Mage's are spontaneous Wisdom-based spellcasters, with a limited number of spells known. They modify spells known by their Wisdom score. At 1st level, they have 2 spell points. It then progresses thusly: 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, and finally 65.
This is still balanced because not all spells are equal. At 17th level, a Mage gets his first 9th-level spell. With 50 spell points, he can cast, say, meteor swarm 5 times, or fireball 16 times. If both always hit, their targets always fail their saves, and both sets do maximum damage, that is 960 damage from the meteor swarms, or 9,600 damage for the fireballs. I haven't gone and calculated based on average touch ACs and Reflex saves for CR 17 monsters, but I'm guessing the major question here is how fast do you need to do how much damage.
A Mage just changes how you use your spells. Time constraints and all can easily keep them balanced.
That and continuing to tweak and refine them as you play one.

Hope this helps!

[Bandw2]

Aleron wrote:

Flame Effigy wrote:

I'd just take a look at Spheres of Power.

Have to second this. It's just a really well done system and very close to a more traditional spell point system.

third, it does this wonderfully.

[Scythia]

It depends on your players, and you.

I've used a spell point system (that was a slightly modified version of the srd one) in my games and it worked fine. Then again none of my players are the type who enjoy pushing a system to it's breaking point.

I did the maths and realized that it reduced overall spells available by around 40% at 20, it just allowed more high level spells. As for giving the wizard too much versatility compared to a sorcerer, I made a few changes. Wizard had to prepare a spell with metamagic or full round cast with their spell book out (which, given the free hand required for somatic meant they couldn't have a weapon, wand or so on out at all) in order to add metamagic while casting. Sorcerer could add metamagic on the fly with no increase in casting time. Also wizards paid 2x the level adjustment to use metamagic, while sorcerer only paid the level adjustment (those values could be changed to 3x and 2x if you want metamagic to be more expensive).

Ultimately you know your players and comfort zone better than anyone on the board. Spell point systems add versatility which can mean more power. It can be a good tool if you think your group (and you) can handle it.