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Bit of a flame-riddled title, but let me explain:
I have recently moved, and have been playing in some new PFS games.
Previously, the tables I went to were quite diverse in race, gender, identity, orientation, etc.
Now, most of my tables are straight, cisgendered, white males.
Rarely, when we get the anyone not in this distinct category, attitude, mannerisms, playstyle, all seems to change. Not always for the positive, or negative, but still, different.
It's subtle, but after all the diverse games I have played in, it's a bit discomforting.
I don't think any of them know it's happening.
I don't know how to handle it, and I am not sure if I should even do, or say anything.
Has anyone experienced this?
If so, what happened, and what did you do?
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Every time I grimace on the inside when players engage in racist/sexist/etc behavior (especially when it's subtle), I am disappointed in myself because I know I should have stepped up and told them to stop instead.
I'm blessed to play in the SF Bay Area where diversity abounds, but that doesn't mean I can't do more, it doesn't mean I shouldn't do more...
I wish I had the courage and mental fortitude to step up every time.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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A while ago, we played in a group that had many tables of different games. And we noticed that if the table was all male, the new female gamers would walk right past it and not even try to join. But if a table had at least two women, new female gamers would try it out. As a result most tables were either all male, or 50/50 male / female.
Several of the women observed that they felt safer joining a game where there were already two women.
If your group is all monoculture, I suspect you are going to find it hard to convince other people who are not of that monoculture to join.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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** spoiler omitted **
I felt stupid, slow, *and* guilty all night.
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I am having difficulty understanding what you are complaining about, perhaps because you have not been particularly specific as to the nature of these behavioral "changes." However, if these nonspecific changes are made in an unconscious effort so as not to offend diverse players, what do you expect to accomplish by even mentioning it? Moreover, why would you even consider offending those that you play with by effectively accusing them of racism or sexism?
Notably, I also find it hard to believe that you have infallible information on the sexual orientations of every local PFS player. In my experience, a player's sexual orientation is not an issue usually discussed during PFS play. Indeed, while white males are indeed prominent in PFS my area, a small number of these players I vaguely suspect might be gay even though they are certainly not flamboyantly so. This is, of course, absolutely none of my business, as it has nothing to do with PFS.
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Okay, let's give some examples, since otherwise, I am a lying asshat.
1) A woman described her gruff male Dwarven Fighter, and there was a pause, a response of "uhhh, okay", and then proceeded to ignore her throughout most of the game, and then when she had to remind others that she was playing a male Dwarf, "yeah, whatever" was the response.
2) An African-American came to the table, and immediately, shoulders stiffened in some players. Then, someone began immediately to describe how the game works, and eventually, the player was able to explain they were quite versed in how the rules work.
3) A homosexual male at the table, it started alright, and when he mentioned his husband's Unchained Rogue build, there was visible discomfort, amongst some of the players.
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You know, some of these may be misunderstandings, but I am bit shocked with some of the outright attacks here.
Especially, when defending the "welcome community".
Again, I said this seems to be a very unique experience, and should not reflect upon the greater community.
This seems to be ignored, and instead, not only seen as an attack on the community, but some seem to take it as a very personal attack.
That's not what's happening.
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Okay, let's give some examples, since otherwise, I am a lying ....
No one is accusing you of lying.
Or the other thing.
1) A woman described her gruff male Dwarven Fighter, and there was a pause, a response of "uhhh, okay", and then proceeded to ignore her throughout most of the game, and then when she had to remind others that she was playing a male Dwarf, "yeah, whatever" was the response.
Hard to say. Players going cross gender can get that response a lot. The whole him/her thing can get confusing.
I'm shocked there wasn't a "what other kind of dwarf is there?" Comment.
2) An African-American came to the table, and immediately, shoulders stiffened in some players. Then, someone began immediately to describe how the game works, and eventually, the player was able to explain they were quite versed in how the rules work.
Guy came up. Was mistaken for new. Said he wasn't new. Could be because he was black, could be because no one recognized him.
3) A homosexual male at the table, it started alright, and when he mentioned his husband's Unchained Rogue build, there was visible discomfort, amongst some of the players.
Ok, so they're not comfortable with it. What would you like them to do? Feel differently? Make a better bluff check to hide it? People don't just change how they feel.
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I am not sure what is going on now.
Forgive me, but am I being told I am doing something wrong with expressing my feelings, concerns, and seeking advice, along with the experiences of others?
I am getting a strong "Shut up! It doesn't exist!" vibe.
You are not being criticized for seeking advice. Rather, the advice you are being given is not to bring up the issue with other PFS players.
In my opinion, confronting another PFS participant at a PFS event is in itself a tactic that should generally be avoided as a matter of courtesy, if possible. This is doubly true when it involves vague accusations of unconscious bias.
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You're still getting defensive, and seemingly, only looking to prove how wrong I am.
Maybe I am, but what if I am not?
What if someone else wanted to share a similar experience here, and noticed the tone and direction of the thread, and opted not to deal with the negative environment?
Why is the only response been excuses, accusations, and the only advice, been "consider yourself wrong"?
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Also Political ,Religious, or Social Views of Players are not our responsibility. If they aren't being overtly offensive or rude then you have nothing to correct as far as the rules and policies of the Organized Play are concerned. Anything else is only your own opinion and your own possibly right or wrong intuition on this matter. Doing anything only upon the Assumption that because they are Straight white males that "subtle" behavior is based upon the Race, Gender or Sexual Orientation of other people with out proof or anything resembling clear proof is kind of Sexist in its own right.
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You're still getting defensive, and seemingly, only looking to prove how wrong I am.
Maybe I am, but what if I am not?
What if someone else wanted to share a similar experience here, and noticed the tone and direction of the thread, and opted not to deal with the negative environment?
Why is the only response been excuses, accusations, and the only advice, been "consider yourself wrong"?
The question that you posed is whether you should mention something to these other players based upon your perception that they were acting out of racist or sexist bias. My comments have been based upon the reasoned assumption that a discussion of your concerns would be ill-received, particularly in that they address uncomfortable accusations of unconscious bias. If these particular PFS participants are jerks, unconsciously or not, perhaps the best option is to find an alternative venue for PFS play. If the problems are minor, perhaps they are best ignored.
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You're still getting defensive and seemingly, only looking to prove how wrong I am.
A situation where you might be reading too much into it is about the worst place to demonstrate that you're definitely reading too much into something.
Maybe I am, but what if I am not?
Ok, what if you're not?
What are you going to call the other players out on? They're going to have at least as many excuses as I do for what they did, and while I can be mistaken, you can't say they're wrong without calling them liars. That won't go over for them, you, or the minority for your table. They'll be mad at you for calling them racist, and the minority will probably be upset at you for making them the center of an argument.
Again, what do you want the other players to do differently if they're uncomfortable or their behavior chances a little? If they're saying or doing something inappropriate you can tell them to stop but you can't realistically tell them to alter their body language.
About the only advice i can give would be to make sure to interact with mr dwarf. Start up a Legolas killing contest or talk beard grooming tips. That way there's some social interaction at least even if no one else joins in.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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1) A woman described her gruff male Dwarven Fighter, and there was a pause, a response of "uhhh, okay", and then proceeded to ignore her throughout most of the game, and then when she had to remind others that she was playing a male Dwarf, "yeah, whatever" was the response.
Was the player being ignored (rude, but it does happen, especially if the player is not very extrovert/assertive), or did people ignore that she was playing a male dwarf?
If you're uncomfortable with someone playing crossgender, just glossing it over is IMO much more polite than making an issue out of it.
Also, some adventures, everyone is really engaging with the style and flair of each others' characters, but in others we're all just tunnel-focused on the mission and character style is ignored. I can't tell in this case.
2) An African-American came to the table, and immediately, shoulders stiffened in some players. Then, someone began immediately to describe how the game works, and eventually, the player was able to explain they were quite versed in how the rules work.
That does sound rather patronizing.
3) A homosexual male at the table, it started alright, and when he mentioned his husband's Unchained Rogue build, there was visible discomfort, amongst some of the players.
I'm gay myself, and I would like everyone to be fine with that, but that's not likely to happen soon. In the meantime, some people will be uncomfortable, and I might notice that. But if they try to be friendly nonetheless and shoulder through their discomfort, I'm not faulting them. Heck, maybe after a while they'll see they don't need to be uncomfortable and relax a bit.
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From your examples I'm not sure if people were being unapologetically rude, or if they were trying to keep a lid on their biases. I'm not judging you or them because I don't know enough.
If people's attitudes in these situations make you uncomfortable, you should talk to them. It's probably best to take a few of of the more reasonable ones aside, one at a time, and mention that the way a situation went wasn't okay with you. Hopefully you can make them see that their behaviour was making you feel bad (and perhaps objectively bad as well), and it'll start them thinking.
Decent people would adjust their behaviour to stop giving offence, even if they didn't personally consider that behaviour offensive, because the judge of offensiveness is the recipient, not the giver. (Within reason.)
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The question that you posed is whether you should mention something to these other players based upon your perception that they were acting out of racist or sexist bias. My comments have been based upon the reasoned assumption that a discussion of your concerns would be ill-received, particularly in that they address uncomfortable accusations of unconscious bias. If these particular PFS participants are jerks, unconsciously or not, perhaps the best option is to find an alternative venue for PFS play.You're still getting defensive, and seemingly, only looking to prove how wrong I am.
Maybe I am, but what if I am not?
What if someone else wanted to share a similar experience here, and noticed the tone and direction of the thread, and opted not to deal with the negative environment?
Why is the only response been excuses, accusations, and the only advice, been "consider yourself wrong"?
I was not directly replying to you.
That is actually good advice, leaving the venue, but I wish that was not so.
Thank you for your tempered and honest response.
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1) A woman described her gruff male Dwarven Fighter, and there was a pause, a response of "uhhh, okay", and then proceeded to ignore her throughout most of the game, and then when she had to remind others that she was playing a male Dwarf, "yeah, whatever" was the response.
Was the player being ignored (rude, but it does happen, especially if the player is not very extrovert/assertive), or did people ignore that she was playing a male dwarf?
If you're uncomfortable with someone playing crossgender, just glossing it over is IMO much more polite than making an issue out of it.
Also, some adventures, everyone is really engaging with the style and flair of each others' characters, but in others we're all just tunnel-focused on the mission and character style is ignored. I can't tell in this case.
Actually, the player was a bit of an extrovert, but slowly became silent, after being ignored. The responses were a bit more dismissive, than I had seen with others. I don't know them too well, so it is possible, there was another reason for it.
I am male, but nearly 90% of my PCs are female. There was a different response to that, than there was to her though.|
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It may be that the group is simply used to a more homogeneous social group, and when someone not within the type of players they are used to arrive, they become uncomfortable.
All humans have some fear of change.
That may be exactly why I am uncomfortable as well.
It can be awkward at times, and don't think any of them are maliciously bigoted in any way. I mean, I hope not.
Maybe there is a way to help them move past it?
Forgive me, but am I being told I am doing something wrong with expressing my feelings, concerns, and seeking advice, along with the experiences of others?
Yes! Stop that at once! This is the Victorian Age, my dear. We do not 'express our feelings'. Why, I haven't seen this scandalous a burst of public emotion since Lord Hampterfuppinshire dropped his napkin in response to hearing of the death of his dear wife!
Ooh, fetch me the smelling salts, I can feel a case of the vapors swift approaching!
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Forgive me, but am I being told I am doing something wrong with expressing my feelings, concerns, and seeking advice, along with the experiences of others?Yes! Stop that at once! This is the Victorian Age, my dear. We do not 'express our feelings'. Why, I haven't seen this scandalous a burst of public emotion since Lord Hampterfuppinshire dropped his napkin in response to hearing of the death of his dear wife!
Ooh, fetch me the smelling salts, I can feel a case of the vapors swift approaching!
Strangely, I an now picturing this.
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BBT, I see totally how you might feel unwelcome in your own thread. I got a small bit of that feeling too just reading the posts.
However, I believe that it is a case of people being automatically on the defensive (on both sides) about such sensitive topics.
The way you described what happened, I would have likely been a bit worried about this too. Especially in the first 2 examples. As ascalaphus clearly explained, the third one might be something we wish would not happen, but people cannot really control what they are comfortable with. As long as they respect the other person, I do not really see it as a problem.
The usual advice given in any problem with PFS players or GMs is to go to the local PFS person in charge and check with them. And escalate it to higher authorities if the problems persist. With all due respect to all people concerned.
I see no reason that this should not be the case here.
That said, you cannot really expect people to change (and even less force them too, even through peer pressure = recipe for long-term disaster IMO). You can only act fairly and respectfully to all (yourself included). This will allow people time to relax and get to know each other better. And then it becomes easier to sort the bad seeds and get away from them.
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It is true, that many people go on the defensive discussing such sensitive topics.
I do find it a bit odd though, as if the subject were automatically about them.
Let's say someone wants to discuss people littering. Your first response need not be about how you don't litter.
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Yes I do have some advice:
Ask them. Maybe they are not use to new people. If you see someone you have never met or even seen in a store you frequent. You may behave a bit differently. It may take seeing them there a few times to relax.
I love seeing new players and organizing game nights, but for some of my players they can be a bit introverted. I can see them laughing their butts off, but a teenager comes over asking a question and they freeze. Its a kid, but some will freeze. The GM running asked if he would like to watch and for the time he was there half the group was a bit more reserved almost to the point of awkward.
People react to new differently.
They may open up after awhile. How many games have you ran with them?
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I'm going to try and add something constructive and helpful here, so please bear with me if I end up slow in getting there.
First, I wasn't there for any of this, so I'm going to try and muddle through forming some opinions and sharing thoughts based on your account.
Second, in the event that none of these incidents had any context that would give them different explanations, I'm sorry that those folks had to deal with the behavior of your new group, and I hope that through some communication, you folks can make your local PFS a more fun experience for everyone.
Okay, let's give some examples, since otherwise, I am a lying asshat.
I don't really see how anyone has suggested this about you. I think everyone here takes these sorts of situations seriously, because we all want PFS to be welcoming (I know I sure do). But as was said earlier, those are some very serious accusations, and up until the post I'm quoting, you were really vague, so it's hard to figure out what was going on, and I'm uncomfortable making accusations of racism, sexism, or homophobia without seeing or knowing more. I'd bet many feel the same as me.
1) A woman described her gruff male Dwarven Fighter, and there was a pause, a response of "uhhh, okay", and then proceeded to ignore her throughout most of the game, and then when she had to remind others that she was playing a male Dwarf, "yeah, whatever" was the response.
You're absolutely right that this could be your group not wanting to engage in RP with a woman, and that would be really unfortunate. But without knowing their motivation, what they're thinking, or more specifics about the interactions she has with the group, it could be a lot of other things, too, and is hard for me to say one way or another.
Has she gamed with the group before? Has the group ever complained about any of her behavior that suggests that they don't like (and therefore ignore/dismiss) this player?
On a different note, she announced that she was playing a gruff Dwarf male. Did she RP the Dwarf man particularly masculine? I ask because tonight I played with a guy who played a female Warpriest of Milani, but he didn't really RP any femininity, so when he announced his character was female for the second time my reaction was "meh" because he didn't really RP it (such as going out of his way to be feminine to illustrate that his character was a woman), so it was hard to keep track of. That's usually how it goes when I run into cross gender role playing.
Is the group RP and style heavy, or tactics and problem solving heavy? That can have a huge effect on whether or not anyone even cares about character traits that have no mechanical effect. While this wouldn't explain your group possibly being rude to this woman who perhaps did care about her cross gender role play, I think it would rule out misogyny.
2) An African-American came to the table, and immediately, shoulders stiffened in some players. Then, someone began immediately to describe how the game works, and eventually, the player was able to explain they were quite versed in how the rules work.
Same here, obviously, that if I can't know what's going through their heads, it's hard to call. I think the biggest indicator here is to figure out how they treat all new comers, and contrast that against how they treated this person.
I know I sometimes assume new folks at our game day don't know anything about the game, but I'm fairly certain I apply this sometimes wrong assumption across the demographic board.
3) A homosexual male at the table, it started alright, and when he mentioned his husband's Unchained Rogue build, there was visible discomfort, amongst some of the players.
This one's tough. I agree wholly with Ascalaphus. Uncomfortable, while not ideal, great, or even good, is acceptable, so long as they are polite.
The unfortunate truth is that some people are uncomfortable with or are against the LGBT community. I feel sad for those people, and hope that one day they can forgive the world and see past their prejudices. But they have the right to hold those opinions and be uncomfortable, like I said, so long as they are polite.
It may be that the group is simply used to a more homogeneous social group, and when someone not within the type of players they are used to arrive, they become uncomfortable.
All humans have some fear of change.
That may be exactly why I am uncomfortable as well.
It can be awkward at times, and don't think any of them are maliciously bigoted in any way. I mean, I hope not.
Maybe there is a way to help them move past it?
This is a real possibility as well, though if it's simply discomfort with change, I'm of the opinion that bigoted isn't really the word that fits here. Particularly since it's a very harsh and loaded term. I guess the next question here is, does your new PFS group usually game with the same specific individuals without much variation on their participant list?
Have you any advice?
The best pieces of advice that I think I can give are these: Keep an open mind with your game group, and try to give the benefit of the doubt (that there is another explanation other than racism/sexism for these incidents, not that they are racist/sexist and just unaware). Maybe talk to your game day organizer if you feel up to it. I'd suggest to ask a lot of questions while expressing concern and to do your best not to be accusatory. Lastly, if this behavior continues/escalates and it becomes obvious and/or blatant that the group is racist/sexist, I would consider finding a new group and contacting the closest Venture Officer to alert them.
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What would he be reporting them for?
I was not thinking about reporting per se. More about having a frank discussion with the appropriate authority on some concerns and see if they are either allayed or dismissed out of hand.
I believe that not saying anything and hoping it goes away might not end that well, and also that the best way to prevent a conflict between two "sides" is to get a third party involved, preferably one with legitimate authority / recognized wisdom.
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So you have played a few with them. Talk with them. I think it may be new guy syndrome. Have you talked with the organizer? If things turn creepy you have already said something.
You have on the boards which is great, but you also need to talk with them or the organizer if you having some issues. All your bases will be covered. If something happens the right people have been informed.
If you feel the organizer falls under this then talk with a Local VO.
If anything trust your gut.
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I intend to give the benefit of the doubt.
I still am uncomfortable with some of the awkward situations, but I could work through it, and hope for the best.
I still fear that there is actually something to it. I hope it's completely unwarranted.
I can't drive, and there are not a lot of options for me.
This means leaving the group, if that is truly necessary, means I can't play.
I admit it could be all an overreaction, and I hope it is.
I am also a person who likes to prepare for the worst, so I wanted to be sure I knew what to do, if I had to actually do something.