New Fighter class feature: Discipline


Homebrew and House Rules


Discipline (Ex)
A fighter can rely on his training to maintain focus in even the most dangerous situations. Fighters can take 10 on any fighter class skill even when in stressful conditions.

Any problems with this?

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It should specify the skills in question.

Secondly, what level does the fighter get it? Taking 10 on skills is a huge deal.


I was thinking level 1 and all the skills in the fighter class skill list.

The following are fighter class skills:
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Dark Archive

I think it is neat and could be a good part to a new archetype. I would say he should not get this at the least 5th level but think closer to 10th is more about right.


Would 1/day per every other level restriction be more appropriate?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cyrad wrote:
It should specify the skills in question.

That depends. Some Fighter archetypes (Lore Warden comes to mind, but I believe there are others) change the class skills a Fighter receives. If you explicitly call out the skills, then there's some ambiguity on what to do in those cases.

Though some modified wording would probably be nice regardless... "Fighters can Take 10 on any class skill granted by the fighter class. Effects, such as archetypes, that modify the class skills granted by the fighter class also modify the skills affected by this class feature."


I would specifically list the skills that a fighter can take 10 on.

Also, I would remove Craft and Profession from the list. It won't really be much of a nerf since those aren't really skills you roll on a daily basis, but I just feel it won't really fit the flavor, and ultimately because of PFS day jobs checks more than anything else.

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This ability should be higher level. Even the bard can't take 10 on skills until 5th level -- and those are knowledge skills! The swashbuckler can't take 10 on physical skills until 15th level. Use per level might be okay, though, but I still think it should be at least a 2nd level ability. The fighter already gets a lot of stuff at 1st level, but all they get at 2nd level is a bonus feat.

I must admit that I find this suggestion out of place. While I pictured the fighter as many things and do believe they should have gotten 4+Int skill points per level, I never pictured the fighter as a skill-focused class.

ZZTRaider wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
It should specify the skills in question.
That depends. Some Fighter archetypes (Lore Warden comes to mind, but I believe there are others) change the class skills a Fighter receives. If you explicitly call out the skills, then there's some ambiguity on what to do in those cases.

That's precisely why I suggest listing the skills. You can modify your class skills using traits and archetypes, making this ability insanely easy to min-max and abuse, which isn't a good thing when the class isn't meant to be a skill-focused class.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cyrad wrote:
ZZTRaider wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
It should specify the skills in question.
That depends. Some Fighter archetypes (Lore Warden comes to mind, but I believe there are others) change the class skills a Fighter receives. If you explicitly call out the skills, then there's some ambiguity on what to do in those cases.
That's precisely why I suggest listing the skills. You can modify your class skills using traits and archetypes, making this ability insanely easy to min-max and abuse, which isn't a good thing when the class isn't meant to be a skill-focused class.

I really feel like class skill changes from Fighter archetypes should be included here. Otherwise, you can get some oddities. Take the Cavern Sniper archetype. It removes Intimidate from the class skills list and replaces it with Stealth. That makes tons of sense and fits the rest of the archetype. Without very clear language (or a change to the archetype itself, which starts to get cumbersome for any sort of homebrew), the Cavern Sniper can take 10 on Intimidate during combat, but not on Stealth. That doesn't make a bit of sense.

In any case, this sort of ability should be worded such that class skills granted from traits or other classes are ineligible for the bonus. It really should be limited to class skills from the Fighter class -- including if you modify the Fighter class itself.

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ZZTRaider wrote:
Without very clear language (or a change to the archetype itself, which starts to get cumbersome for any sort of homebrew), the Cavern Sniper can take 10 on Intimidate during combat, but not on Stealth. That doesn't make a bit of sense.

Once again, you illustrate why letting all class skills apply would be a bad idea. Taking 10 varies in value depending on the skill. It's good on Knowledge checks, but nothing too powerful because it doesn't give you much advantage over other units in encounters. Taking 10 on Intimidate would be absolutely broken because it can inflict fear effects at-will and there's options for building an entire character around that. Again, not using a static list allows a player to easily abuse it to create a broken character by picking the right archetypes and traits to modify their class skill list.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cyrad wrote:
Once again, you illustrate why letting all class skills apply would be a bad idea. Taking 10 varies in value depending on the skill. It's good on Knowledge checks, but nothing too powerful because it doesn't give you much advantage over other units in encounters. Taking 10 on Intimidate would be absolutely broken because it can inflict fear effects at-will and there's options for building an entire character around that. Again, not using a static list allows a player to easily abuse it to create a broken character by picking the right archetypes and traits to modify their class skill list.

In that case, I'd argue that there should be a list of exclusions, rather than a list of inclusions.

As you said, Taking 10 on Knowledge checks is nice, but not terribly powerful. Why is it a problem if a Lore Warden Fighter that has picked up this new Discipline ability can Take 10 on those checks?

I'll also note that even within the Core Rulebook, a Rogue can take a single Advanced Talent to choose 3 + Intelligence Modifier skills that they can Take 10 on, despite stress or distractions. They can also take that talent multiple times. There's no limitations on what you can choose -- you can easily choose Intimidate or Bluff, both of which have combat implications for a Rogue (through Shatter Defenses and feinting).

I agree this would be an overly strong ability at level 1. Keeping it to the Fighter's class skills, even if they are provided by a Fighter archetype, does not seem ridiculous to me. The Fighter is still going to be hard-pressed to invest enough skill ranks to make good use of more than a couple of these skills, anyway.

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Wouldn't it make more sense and involve better design practice to limit the list in accordance to a theme much like the swashbuckler and bard does?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cyrad wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense and involve better design practice to limit the list in accordance to a theme much like the swashbuckler and bard does?

Possibly, but then you're tying yourself from repeating your homebrew for every new Fighter archetype that comes out that happens to do something with class skills. Or, really, at that point, you need to evaluate whether the Discipline skill list still makes sense for every Fighter archetype. Perhaps you don't believe Swim makes sense for the base Fighter, but it probably does for the Corsair.

Maybe it's just the software engineer in me, but more scalable solutions that involve less long-term work generally seem better to me.

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I understand. I'm an MS in computer science. I'm all for house rules scalable with existing and future published content. But there's times where you want to compromise that for game design integrity. Much like how you generally should not have your web app's data model query the database for all columns of a table. Sure, it makes the app less scalable, but it also makes the app much more secure and leads to better design practices overall.

It makes a better designed, balanced, and more thematic ability if the class feature restricted to skills such as Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, and Swim. It makes sense, the listed skills would not be broken if taken 10 on, and it synergizes with the fighter's negation of armor check penalties.


Felyndiira wrote:

I would specifically list the skills that a fighter can take 10 on.

Also, I would remove Craft and Profession from the list. It won't really be much of a nerf since those aren't really skills you roll on a daily basis, but I just feel it won't really fit the flavor

What? You've never had to put up a bunch of shelves in a hurry before? :)

I picture fighters as the quintessential soldiers--able to put their nose to the grindstone and do the job in front of them because that's what they learned when their Drill Sargent was yelling at them. That would include churning out new weapons for the platoon on the forge before the enemy army arrives.

Quote:
and ultimately because of PFS day jobs checks more than anything else.

I don't think the PFS people would listen to me anyway.


So the currently revised version would look like this:

Discipline (Ex)
At 3rd level, a fighter can rely on his training to maintain focus in even the most dangerous situations. Once a day, he can take 10 on any skill that is on the fighter class skill list, even in stressful situations. Every three levels, the number of times per day that they can use this ability increases by one (twice a day at level 6, three times at level 9, etc). If fighter has taken an archetype that has modified the class skill list, he can use this ability on any of those skills. Class skills gained from other sources such as traits or other classes cannot be used with this ability.

Verdant Wheel

To me, this is a rogue thing.

Have you already upped the fighter's skills to 4 (or even 6) points per level?

Dark Archive

darth_borehd wrote:


What? You've never had to put up a bunch of shelves in a hurry before? :)

I picture fighters as the quintessential soldiers--able to put their nose to the grindstone and do the job in front of them because that's what they learned when their Drill Sargent was yelling at them. That would include churning out new weapons for the platoon on the forge before the enemy army arrives.

Or digging a trench to prepare a defensive position.


I say Paladins should get this too. Or add their Charisma mod to skill checks or something. I hate seeing the widening gap between Paladins and Fighters in terms of martial ability, makes me think less that the church has its own elite militant order and more that they're just throwing shmucks in armor.

Maybe like one bonus feat every 6 levels and a more restrictive code as well.


The issue I would like to see this address is that fighters are really good at well, fighting, but once the last foe drops, they don't do much.

Every other class has roleplaying opportunities outside of combat and the easiest way to engage players out of combat into some roleplaying is using skills to accomplish some non-combat things.


Totes McScrotes wrote:

I say Paladins should get this too. Or add their Charisma mod to skill checks or something. I hate seeing the widening gap between Paladins and Fighters in terms of martial ability, makes me think less that the church has its own elite militant order and more that they're just throwing shmucks in armor.

Maybe like one bonus feat every 6 levels and a more restrictive code as well.

I'm OK with widening that paladin/fighter gap a little. I see paladins as more as Joan of Arc than Crusaders.


Totes McScrotes wrote:

I hate seeing the widening gap between Paladins and Fighters in terms of martial ability, makes me think less that the church has its own elite militant order and more that they're just throwing shmucks in armor.

I thought that was the point. The gods don't even grant them proper spells until 4th level, almost as if they're saying "Wait, you're still here? Might as well give you spells."

I always imagined paladins teaching paladinry to prospective paladins in a line back to some Cayden-esque hero who never had the heightened military training of a fighter. This guy was just a regular average joe with some militia training that made a deal with a good god for the power to fight evil. He taught others how to make this deal with a god as he grew older and weaker. His students adopted his name as a title to show respect. And so Paladin passed his legacy on through time, and eventually he faded into fable and legend.

This concludes my weird illfitting story.

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