This archatype was cooked up by my current GM Trajan_ and his pall Darthmarth28
Here you go. arcane fist
I am going to be trying it out but I figured it would be a good idea to get an expert opinion on how it looks.
I see two minor trade offs for a ton of new features. You get Flurry of Blows... In exchange for nothing.
Yeah, I noticed that in the version of this post in the advice forum too.
The armor thing is a 6 of 1, half dozen of another thing, since it provides nonarmor protection. And the change from the usual bonus feats to style feats is not a big loss if you wanted to use the bonus feats that way anyway.
The only major trade off I saw was from the delay in spellstrike...and I do not think you actually need spell strike if you are using unarmed strikes and not even trading away any of your hits for that touch attack.
The normal spell combat gives you an extra hit with your spell combat+spell strike. That is where it gets kinda TWF-ish, and you get no extra hits until you get both of those abilities. With flurry, you are already TWFish. So at level 8, you are just adding another free hit at full BAB, which goes on top of the free hits you gain already with flurry.
Overall, this takes a class that novas really well, but might have trouble with long term DPR, and it makes it a class with great long term DPR and also novas just as well as before (if not better)
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I think it's fine.
The features it gains are on their own pretty strong, but UAS is a seriously non-optimal weapon for a magus because it doesn't have an expanded crit range. Also, the extra attack from FOB is in many circumstances just going to replace the attack you get when delivering a touch spell with Spellstrike. Note that the archetype can't use Spellstrike with Spell Combat (by which I assume you mean Arcane Conduit); this combined with the lower crit range lowers damage.
However I would probably apply a -2 penalty to all attacks when using Arcane Conduit (like Spell Combat does).
I'd also specify what happens to your UAS damage at level 1, where you're a 1/2 level monk - is it minimum monk 1, so d6, or normal UAS damage until level 2?
I think it's fine.
The features it gains are on their own pretty strong, but UAS is a seriously non-optimal weapon for a magus because it doesn't have an expanded crit range. Also, the extra attack from FOB is in many circumstances just going to replace the attack you get when delivering a touch spell with Spellstrike. Note that the archetype can't use Spellstrike with Spell Combat (by which I assume you mean Arcane Conduit); this combined with the lower crit range lowers damage.
However I would probably apply a -2 penalty to all attacks when using Arcane Conduit (like Spell Combat does).
I'd also specify what happens to your UAS damage at level 1, where you're a 1/2 level monk - is it minimum monk 1, so d6, or normal UAS damage until level 2?
So no extra attack.
Doesn't mean it doesn't have effective spell combat- hold a touch spell, and punch someone, and the spell discharges.
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It does have spell combat, but because spellstrike has been changed, Flurry doesn't give the advantage on number of attacks that it would with normal spellstrike.
A standard 2nd level Magus who uses Spell Combat with a touch spell gets 2 attacks at highest BAB: one normally, one from spellstrike, and can deliver the touch charge with an attack.
An arcane fist using arcane conduit gets two attacks: one normally, one flurry, and can deliver a touch charge with an attack.
Now, you posted:
So at level 8, you are just adding another free hit at full BAB, which goes on top of the free hits you gain already with flurry.
But this isn't the case, because the arcane fist can't use spellstrike with flurry/arcane conduit, so it can't add the weapon attack from spellstrike onto the extra attacks from flurry - it has to choose between a flurry (which can include casting a spell) and a spellstrike. The second bonus attack at level 11 is nice, but at that point a standard magus is easily running around with a 15-10 crit range that applies to spellstrike, and probably has a better weapon because AoMF is expensive.
Actually, it occurs to me that using the term spellstrike for the arcane fist's ability is a bad idea since it doesn't actually work like the magus' spellstrike.
I see two minor trade offs for a ton of new features. You get Flurry of Blows... In exchange for nothing.Minor trade-offs? You're practically a monk, that's not a minor trade-off. Your low-level AC is going to be trash, though at least you can self-buff. At higher levels, you'll still be behind. You have 3/4 BAB, not some modified full BAB like a real monk, which means that you'll be missing a fair amount of times. Your ability to move and attack is shot down, and you lose most of the expanded spell critical range that a regular magus gets. You essentially become a MADer monk without nonmagical combat options.
And for this reason Kensai are one of the least powerful classes in the game?
PS: You asked for feedback. My feedback is that you are just throwing stuff on the Magus without any true trade offs. Losing armor in exchange for another-stat-to-AC is fine, the rest is too powerful.
You might want to take a look at the esoteric magus archetype when Occult Adventures becomes available.
This sounds like fun. I'm hoping it is somewhat like a non-divine Sacred Fist (Warpriest).
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PS: You asked for feedback. My feedback is that you are just throwing stuff on the Magus without any true trade offs. Losing armor in exchange for another-stat-to-AC is fine, the rest is too powerful.
Being tied to UAS is a trade-off. Your weapon costs twice as much (therefore isn't going to have as high an enhancement) and you only threaten crits on a 20. How many strong magus builds do you see using a weapon that threatens only on a 20?
Though I notice there is no limitation on the weapon used during the Arcane Fist's flurry, and there probably should be. I would probably limit it to UAS only - or at least require that the bonus attacks be UAS - because even some monk weapons would be a big step up.
PS: You asked for feedback. My feedback is that you are just throwing stuff on the Magus without any true trade offs. Losing armor in exchange for another-stat-to-AC is fine, the rest is too powerful.Being tied to UAS is a trade-off. Your weapon costs twice as much (therefore isn't going to have as high an enhancement) and you only threaten crits on a 20. How many strong magus builds do you see using a weapon that threatens only on a 20?
Though I notice there is no limitation on the weapon used during the Arcane Fist's flurry, and there probably should be. I would probably limit it to UAS only - or at least require that the bonus attacks be UAS - because even some monk weapons would be a big step up.
Enhancement is actually a non-problem because this is a magus we are talking about.
Monks would KILL to be able to get a scaling enhancement bonus for a full minute just by spending a point from their ki pool. This is a built in process for magi, and this archetype still retains that ability (along with also gaining the ability to use their arcane pool for ki stuff).
And while yes, it does mean they do less damage on their nova, it also means they are less reliant on their nova. Flurry would allow them to get full str and power attack damage on every hit.
Now imagine if a magus took snake style or hamatula strike in order to get precise strike with the arcane deed arcana, pushing their damage up even more. Precise strike was designed to make swashbucklers compete with full BAB 2 handers using 1 weapon/1 hand style- it is already kinda broken for magi to get that on their build that grants more hits, and push that even further by making it a full on TWF-ish ability that also has an option for extra hits via the copied ki abilities.
So even when restricted to unarmed strikes only, magi are keenly suited to taking advantage of that style to gain frightening and steady DPR, and they would still retain the majority of their nova ability allowing them to throw out meta-magic'd up shocking grasps.
So if you were to balance this, you would do well to remove their ability to do a lot of that. Only the loss of spell combat and the usual usages of arcane pool make up for all that. And in the end, you would still have a character with decent damage and utility via magic. It would just play like a more monk-ish blood rager.
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The arcane pool enhancement gives them a big advantage over monks, but not over the standard magus, which is what I'm comparing this to - the Arcane Fist will still have a less powerful weapon than usual for a magus.
Less damage on nova for more consistent damage sounds like a fair trade to me - maybe even more balanced than the standard monk since a common complaint is that it's hard to handle the class when it does nova.
A rapier-wielding magus does not require a feat to use precise strike, so that's an advantage for the standard magus. And as established above, until level 11 the arcane fist does not actually have an advantage in number of attacks (or Str damage on those attacks) due to the change to spellstrike - unless they use the ki ability, which may be grounds for removing that ability.
But if you lose spell combat and the usual arcane pool the archetype will be terrible compared to the standard magus. It'll be better than the CRB monk, but that's hardly a proper standard.
Still, I think we both agree that it should not be open to regular monk weapons.
A cestus looks like it would be perfect for exploiting this system- 19-20, piercing damage, monk weapon. That would mean you could easily enhance it normally, and stillg et arcane deed and flurry in.
And am still not convinced the changes I suggested would be entirely terrible. With powerful spells when you need to do standard action attacks, and with the option for dimensional dervish making the flurry even more appealing...
How about making spell combat cost arcane points instead? It would replace the 'extra attack' ki point option.
Being tied to Unarmed Strike is as much of a benefit as it is a liability. You can't talk like it's all downside.
Compare it to any UAS archetype. Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy (extremely playable), Iroran Paladin (playable enough, UAS-focus is not the issue of the archetype).
Anyway, my opinion remains the same.
Being tied to Unarmed Strike is as much of a benefit as it is a liability. You can't talk like it's all downside.
Compare it to any UAS archetype. Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy (extremely playable), Iroran Paladin (playable enough, UAS-focus is not the issue of the archetype).
Anyway, my opinion remains the same.
If it was merely melee, that would be entirely true.
But spells sent through spellstrike use your weapon's crit range (but always do x2). That is one of the things that seperates them from damage focused caster made using wizards.
Your basic intensified shocking grasp does a max of 10d6 damage. Doubling that result can mean a lot, and a lucky shot can, at times, make short work of a BBEG, even before you get to the rest of your full attack.
For a moment, I thought my reply got eaten by the forum. But apparently, you made a duplicate thread.
But yeah, I have to agree with much of what Secret Wizard argues. In addition, the mechanics around flurry, conduit, and spellstrike are really sloppy and awkward.
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A cestus looks like it would be perfect for exploiting this system- 19-20, piercing damage, monk weapon. That would mean you could easily enhance it normally, and stillg et arcane deed and flurry in.
Yes, that would be a problem.
How about making spell combat cost arcane points instead? It would replace the 'extra attack' ki point option.
Sure. I don't think it's necessary, but I think it would still be worth playing, so that sounds fair.