Short Move - an alternate 5-foot step

[rainzax]

A full-attack leaves a martial character only the barest movement (5 feet) whilst a caster character can pull off a spell and still move it's full 30 feet in most cases.

And while some think making a full-attack into a standard action is the answer, I find that too tampersome with the rest of the Pathfinder system. So here is a modest proposal to strike the balance between extreme change and no change at all.

Short Move:
A character may take a short move in lieu of taking a 5-foot step. A short move allows the character to move up to half their movement speed. Unlike a 5-foot step, this movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

thoughts?

[DM_Blake]

I'd say just drop that and let people take ONE 5'Step for every 5 points of BAB (or fraction thereof). This way they get better at fighting and moving over time.

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BAB .......... Number of 5'Steps
0-5 .......... 1
6-10 ........ 2
11-15 ...... 3
16-20 ...... 4

[kyrt-ryder]

It's a decent partial improvement, though I'm curious why a full attack as a standard tampers too much with the system?

If the concern is monsters, it would be easy enough to exclude natural attacks from the Standard Action Full Attack, after all if moving and full attack is sufficiently important to a monster it has pounce.

[kyrt-ryder]

DM_Blake wrote:

I'd say just drop that and let people take ONE 5'Step for every 5 points of BAB (or fraction thereof). This way they get better at fighting and moving over time.

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BAB .......... Number of 5'Steps
0-5 .......... 1
6-10 ........ 2
11-15 ...... 3
16-20 ...... 4

Wynaut both?

[Combining these two is actually a pretty significant step up in combat adaptability for martials and something I wholely endorse.]

This *does* produce a result where high level martials can move as far as they can hustle/charge while dropping attacks, but I'm totally ok with that. If it bugs you then perhaps martials replace their x2 hustle/charge multiplier with x3 at BAB +10ish or so.

[rainzax]

DM_Blake,
Mainly because I'd like to expand options starting from level one. Also, your variant doesn't interact with speed enhancements like the monk's Fast Movement ability.

kyrt-ryder,
A lot of material, take it or leave it, has been designed to mitigate the trade-off between offense and mobility. For example Vital Strike. I'd like to not invalidate that content.

[kyrt-ryder]

I prefer to invalidate content with awesome stuff so my players can choose other content that makes their characters even more awesome.

To each his own my friend.

[Cyrad]

I really like how 3.5/PF has a system that trades off between damage and mobility. The problem is that it's too binary. Either you do all of your attacks but become completely immobile, or you move and lose more than half your damage potential.

I'm working on a tabletop RPG project that tries to make the tradeoff more gradual. The action economy uses a point system where there's three types of attacks: light, medium, and heavy. You can move double your speed to make a light attack, standard speed to make a medium attack, or can only take a step to make a heavy attack. My playtesters really enjoyed this system and took to it quickly.

Perhaps something like this could work? Once per full-attack, you can forgo your next attack in order to move half your movement speed.

[rainzax]

Cyrad,
I agree with your analysis of the trade-off. I like it in theory but not exactly in practice.
Unlike you, I have no intention of reinventing the wheel.
That said, I think the 5-foot step is an elegant mechanic that already situates itself neatly within the system. Why not simply build on that mechanical base?

A level 1-20 martial character's options thus become:

Move 60 feet and charge
Move 30 feet and attack
Move 15 feet and full attack
Step 5 feet and full attack

[Cyrad]

You can move half your speed when full-attacking? I like that. It still feels a little binary, but circumstance where you lose your damage potential is smaller. It might get ridiculous with the monk and haste. The monk might be acceptable, but this would make haste even more god-like since the designers wrote it with the assumption you can only benefit from the extra attack or the movement speed buff--not both. Perhaps changing haste so that you have to choose one or the other, similar to blessing of fervor?

[Grey_Mage]

DM_Blake wrote:

I'd say just drop that and let people take ONE 5'Step for every 5 points of BAB (or fraction thereof). This way they get better at fighting and moving over time.

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.
.
.

BAB .......... Number of 5'Steps
0-5 .......... 1
6-10 ........ 2
11-15 ...... 3
16-20 ...... 4

I don't like how at level 6 you can take two 5' steps to move around an opponent without provoking, basically making acrobatics obsolete, but I appreciate the concept.

Refining it a little. How about:
-expanding the 5' step by 5' for every +5 BAB (same as you thus far)
-You can only ignore 1 square regarding provoking AOO's.
-Your full attack routine is reduced by 1 attack for each "add-on" 5'.

It wont change much for the Twohanded Fighter until 10+ but it would work wonders for the TWF, who tend to favor mobility anyway.

[rainzax]

Good point on Haste.

Then again, it is by nature a teamwork spell, and that is the kind of tactics I'd like to positively reinforce my PCs into doing. For that reason, and because I am loathe to use subtractive (rather than additive) house rules in general, I will probably let Haste be.

That monks can get more mileage out of this house rule is an added plus.

What do you think about Dwarves?

[DM_Blake]

rainzax wrote:

DM_Blake,

Mainly because I'd like to expand options starting from level one. Also, your variant doesn't interact with speed enhancements like the monk's Fast Movement ability.

Most level 1 characters don't have more than one attack anyway. TWF characters, or monsters, or the odd character with claws or bite attacks. Everyone else won't care because they're not full attacking until they have more BAB.

Frankly, for me, I don't mind having those super-fast ("I get to hit you lots of times") kind of guys build up their mobility like everyone else - it improves with your growing experience.

One advantage of the extra 5'Step option is that each 5'Step can be taken between swings of a Full Attack, so someone with BAB 11 could take a 5'Step, attack an enemy twice, then take another 5'Step, attack another enemy, then take a third 5'Step to position himself for the next round.

Or like Kyrt said, do both. That would be funny with a hasted high level monk taking four 50'Steps in a round, but what the heck, that would be fun too.

[rainzax]

I'll admit I like your suggestion DM_Blake, but I want to keep a single change to the fundamental mechanics, and chose mine over yours.

I already have a reputation among my players as a tamperer. So it's a matter of walking that line too.

I think early TWF needs a little boost besides.

[Cyrad]

Haste is still a pretty amazing spell even if nerfed so you had to choose between the speed buff and extra attack for the mobility house rule. Keep in mind it's fairly low level and affects a whole party.

[rainzax]

Again, more incentive to use Haste I am okay with in my game. The spell by nature has the PCs work together to share the spotlight. Using this house rule while hasted leaves the caster's teammate with these options:

Move 120 feet and charge
Move 60 feet and attack
Move 30 feet and full attack
Tumble 15 feet and full attack
Step 5 feet and full attack

My bigger problem is that my house rule, by making speed more important, makes having a slow land speed even more of a penalty. So, what to do with Dwarves!? I'm thinking of interaction with the Slow and Steady racial trait...

Spoiler:

As an aside, I think it is important for a DM to look at his house rules through not only his own lens (system balance) but also through the lens of his PCs (character choice). For example, a DM may nerf the Haste spell to preserve the former in exchange for an encroachment of the latter. But, I have found that many players, especially the kinds who wouldn't frequent these boards, would view a nerf to the Haste spell as a subtle warning sign not to choose it (because it becomes, by circumstance, a controversial choice). In short, I like to think long and hard before I engage in "subtractive" house ruling as opposed to "additive" house ruling, because of the two very different types of signals it communicates to your players. I'd like to say "yes" much more frequently than I say "no".

[Cyrad]

I don't think there's anything wrong with dwarves since they would have the same speed as someone with medium armor, which a dwarf will likely wear.

[rainzax]

Good point.

[My Self]

Would it hurt too much to scale basic speed with BAB? So high BAB characters just natural move faster than casters. Maybe an increase that's the same as the bonus 5-foot step increases? So a 20th level Dwarf Fighter could move 40 (20 base + 20 BAB) feet as a move action. Or they could take up to 4 5-foot steps for a total of 20 feet of movement.

Also, maybe Rogue would be considered to have a BAB 5 higher than normal for the purposes of movement speed and 5-foot steps. (So a 1st level Rogue would have a mobility advantage on everybody else, and a 20th level Rogue would be on par with a 20th level Fighter)

[Covert Operator]

My Self wrote:

maybe Rogue would be considered to have a BAB 5 higher than normal for the purposes of movement speed and 5-foot steps. (So a 1st level Rogue would have a mobility advantage on everybody else, and a 20th level Rogue would be on par with a 20th level Fighter)

More like "rogues are treated as having full BAB for the movement house rule" unless you want to encourage dipping...

Alas, this is a necro conversation from last week.

[My Self]

Maybe single-class rogues get +5, each other class (not including prestige classes that advance Sneak Attack) reduce this bonus by 2 or 3?

BAB +5 is meant to give Rogues an edge in the early game and not make them obsolete in the late game.

Otherwise, maybe 2x BAB? So a 20th level Rogue would count as having a BAB of 30 for the purposes of move bonus and extra steps. Maybe something similar for Monks.

[Covert Operator]

My Self wrote:

Maybe single-class rogues get +5, each other class (not including prestige classes that advance Sneak Attack) reduce this bonus by 2 or 3?

BAB +5 is meant to give Rogues an edge in the early game and not make them obsolete in the late game.

Otherwise, maybe 2x BAB? So a 20th level Rogue would count as having a BAB of 30 for the purposes of move bonus and extra steps. Maybe something similar for Monks.

I think 2x BAB is the best way to do it. It only slightly rewards dipping 2 levels by granting 3 BAB, and it makes rogues really good at movement.

[rainzax]

How does simply increasing move speed help mobilize full-attackers?

[My Self]

It's in combination with the bonus 5-foot step thing. Your movement speed increases, which in turn increases your 1/2 speed, which increases the limit to how far you can move with 5-foot steps. Which allows regular Halfling Fighter Weaponmasters in heavy armor (regular move speed 15) to not be overly reliant on their Haste Wizard. Wizards can function fine solo, why can't fighters?

[rainzax]

Are you referring to DM_Blake's Extra Steps proposal?

Or to both my Short Move proposal and his Extra Steps proposal?

[My Self]

This particular part was to his Extra Steps.

I suppose the combination of Short Move and Extra Steps would be a bit broken. Consider: level 10, as a full martial, you could move your speed and full attack by using short moves to replace your 2 5-foot steps, or you could move your speed and single attack by using your move action to move then taking a standard action to attack.

Don't get me wrong, I like the short move. It's minimally disruptive and makes sense. But I also like the Extra Steps thing, and it's unfortunate that they don't work together.

:(

[kyrt-ryder]

They actually do work together, it just dramatically alters the way characters [martials moreso than mages] move around the battlefield.

[My Self]

So your Fighter can move and full attack at level 10. That's great, though it kinda invalidates your move action. By 15, you can move 1.5 speed and full attack. Your move action is now obsolete. By 20, you can pounce without an AC penalty.

At mid to higher levels, this leaves us in the position of constantly 5-foot step moving everywhere when we want to get anything done, ever. I have no problem with a full martial character being able to get places fast and lay the hurt down well. I do have a problem when certain actions get completely flushed out. If you could do your funky move-sprint, why would you ever take a regular move action ever again?

Maybe we could come up with a way for move actions and full-round action runs to scale with short move + bonus steps?

[rainzax]

To combine the two proposals, I could to see Extra Steps being turned into a cool fighter-only feat.

Lethal Advance
You combine skill with a blade with deadly footwork
Prerequisites: BAB 6+, Fighter 6th
Benefit: You may intersperse up to two 5-foot steps when making a full attack. You may only follow up a successful attack roll with a 5-foot step, continuing your attack sequence normally. When you reach BAB 11, and again at BAB 16, you may similarly intersperse an additional 5-foot step (maximum 4 steps per turn).
Normal: You may only take a single 5-foot step on your turn, and it must be taken either before or after your full-attack action.

So, the additional mobility (assuming you substitute Short Moves for steps) that could normally exceed your standard speed are contingent upon iterative attacks landing, thus diminishing returns somewhat.

[My Self]

I'm pretty sure you can already take 5-foot steps in the middle of a full-attack action. It's only when cleaving that you can't.

Plus, multiple consecutive 5-foot steps before attacking would help against reach monsters.

[rainzax]

My Self wrote:

I'm pretty sure you can already take 5-foot steps in the middle of a full-attack action.

How did I miss this before?!?

My Self wrote:

It's only when cleaving that you can't.

Unless you are a dwarf

Lethal Advance
You combine skill with a blade with deadly footwork
Prerequisites: BAB 6+, Fighter 6th
Benefit: You may intersperse up to two 5-foot steps when making a full attack. You may only take additional 5-foot steps provided by this feat after making a successful attack for each one. When you reach BAB 11, and again at BAB 16, you may similarly intersperse an additional 5-foot step (maximum 4 steps per turn).
Normal: You may only take a single 5-foot step on your turn.

[My Self]

rainzax wrote:

Lethal Advance
You combine skill with a blade with deadly footwork
Prerequisites: BAB 6+, Fighter 6th
Benefit: You may intersperse up to two 5-foot steps when making a full attack. You may only take additional 5-foot steps provided by this feat after making a successful attack for each one. When you reach BAB 11, and again at BAB 16, you may similarly intersperse an additional 5-foot step (maximum 4 steps per turn).
Normal: You may only take a single 5-foot step on your turn.

Hm.

I kinda like that, but kinda don't like having to make 5-foot steps between attacks. It takes the general applicability out of the feat. :(

Maybe something like:

Lethal Advance
You combine skill with a blade with deadly footwork
Prerequisites: BAB 6+, Fighter 6th
Benefit: As part of a full-attack action, you may make a number of 5-foot steps equal to the number of attacks you get from BAB. You may only take additional 5-foot steps provided by this feat after making a successful melee or throwing weapon attack for each step. You may not 5-foot step a distance that exceeds your speed.
Normal: You may only take a single 5-foot step on your turn.

Improved Lethal Advance
Your strikes become unavoidable as you bear down on your enemies
Prerequisites: Lethal Advance, Fighter 10th
Benefit: When using Lethal Advance, you gain a circumstance bonus to melee and throwing weapon attacks equal to the number of 5-foot steps you have taken this turn. Your additional 5-foot steps may follow unsuccessful attacks.
Normal: You may only take additional 5-foot steps after making successful attacks.

Greater Lethal Advance
You become a whirlwind of steel as you dive in and out of battle
Prerequisites: Improved Lethal Advance, Fighter 14th
Benefit: Your additional 5-foot steps from Lethal Advance may be taken in any order, and not only after attempting a melee or throwing weapon attack.
Normal: You may only take additional 5-foot steps from Lethal Advance after attempting an attack before each step.

In hindsight, this way seems to use too many feats. I nerfed Lethal Advance a bit by making it so you needed to use melee and throwing weapon attacks (and not bows). Improved Lethal Attacks is meant to help with iteratives. You only take a stacking -4 (20/16/12/8) per iterative instead of a stacking -5 (20/15/10/5), and you can make additional attacks even if you miss. Greater Lethal Advance is meant to put you in the same league as the pouncing Barbarian. They can move twice their speed and full attack, but they provoke AOOs. You can move 0.5x to 1x of your speed and full attack and not provoke AOOS. Additionally, if you burn movement beforehand, it's a pseudo-charge, because it gives you up to +4 to hit. Or you could use it to be a striker, and step 10 feet in, full attack, then step 10 feet out.