Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote: @Oliver McShade.
Just... why?
You're going to be rolling d20's all day, even putting Wizard with high level summons to shame. And that's a system which is obviously going to be broken, I can tell, things like treat one attack as two attacks. Wait does that mean you can move and shoot twice? Shoot twice in surprise round?
Getting 6 shots in 6 seconds...
And although each shot is apparently enough to scythe through armour so easily it's resolved as touch the damage per hit is as weak as a Light Crossbow sized for a cat (tiny creature).
Angry Ghost said: "basically the culminating point is that if someone had a firearm they would probably think of using it as a club as opposed to shooting it"
More like they have one shot between lengthy reload, it's going to be a big deal for them to use their shot, for example they wouldn't use it in a skirmish with many fleeting enemies in close quarters. But if you hear familiar incantations from a mysterious hooded figure in the backfield, this is where GM fluff is important, the GM established certain familiar phrase is used to summon a horrific monster, you fear it being uttered again. Rush over to a good position, draw your musket and take a shot.
Yes they could also move and just draw a thrown weapon, and thrown weapons have their place, they are really great for how each round you can move and shoot, move and shoot, over and over, each time swapping back to a two handed grip of your melee weapon. But if that caster is summoning a beast you need to bet all you've got on one good hit. You don't really want to have blown you one shot on the first goblin you see, unless you're trying to make a point.
Yeah, I'd like to have a bayonet that can be on muskets without blocking the barrel. It'd mainly be there to, again, serve the general purpose nature of a firearm, you still threaten the squares around you which is important, even if you don't feel particularly confident using it to attack with, as for:
-Someone trying to run right past you, like to go...
Well, they are more for fluff then, like "ohh this would be a cool time to use" them as opposed to using them all the time.
Like a pirate movie, where they shoot once or twice then its swords all the way.
If you homebrewed this much of the firearm... just have a bayonet that doesn't get stuck in the barrel... they used that as a balancing factor... so guns are a lot weaker now in your game so get rid of it.
Within regards to two attacking twice with one attack, I would only allow that on the very first attack... and multi attack actually only works with arrows... as it states I believe you notch two arrows and fire them both at once. Rapid Shot lets you fire twice, but there is the matter of reloading... if you have a single shot pistol like a harpersferry... they are still stuck reloading and cant get the rapid shot... now even if they have abilities, deeds and feats to bring it down to a free action for reloading.
What it says in the Core Rule Book... the GM decides how many free actions a player can get... so even if its a free action to reload a bullet in a firearm... limit how many they can get.. perhaps they are limited to their dex modifier?
But on a comical note... all I can think of is the old black and white superman TV show... where the bad guys shoot superman... and the bullets bounce off of him.... so then they throw their guns at him after they are out of ammo....If you cant kill.... maybe you can give him a really bad bruise?
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote: Jericho Graves wrote: Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote: " it isnt readied fast enough for someone to use it when they want/ need to because of the extended reload times"
Why would you carry it around unloaded?
I honestly find your changes to firearms interesting. But the one thing I HAVE to disagree with, is your disregard for how volatile and unstable early powder was. To walk around with a loaded gun was the equivalent of having a miniature explosive on your hip or back. A single spark from a torch in a dungeon (which pathfinder should have a few of if you're using the game alot) could end up blowing off your leg.
So I ask you, why would I carry around a loaded firearm packed with volatile, explosive powder? At the very least it could go off planting the bullet in my own flesh, at the most the gun itself backfires.
Not to mention that if it's an outdoors adventure and I need to cross a creek or small river with no bridge or raft, my powder is now ruined if I didn't think to unload the firearm.
*Edit*
For the river example, so many times has my DM have us roll life or death skill checks to cross a raging river to escape some creature that could not stand water, only to have brigands and bandits of our own level in the trees on the other side that we failed to notice. (a -5 perception check for almost drowning is pretty reasonable to our group, especially if you keep going up and under repeatedly)
You've got a very good point but the problem is how it actually plays out in game.
The player will inevitably say "yeah, of course I have it loaded" when I raise the spectre of accidental discharges they give me an incredulous look... and rightly so, it's now left to my whim whether he either blows his leg off or we have the ridiculous circumstance that they have to spend the first round of combat fooling around loading a gun. There is no gameplay modelling for stray sparks or static discharges, there is no way to tell the difference between me being a dutiful game... well sorry to say Alex... I would have to side with Jericho on this one... because once you pack shot, wad, cap and powder and push the ball in... if you leave it like that for a long period of time, the cold chamber of the weapon starts to accumulate water, based on pure temperature difference and condensation.. and now the contents inside the weapon get wet... and when you travel with it... do you travel with the barrel up and slung to your side? Essentially having a loaded weapon pointed at you or your friends... we call that Flagging in the Army (a big no no... that someone would be within their rights to punch you in the face). Or do you have the weapon pointed down at the earth... where you have a chance of the contents of your weapon falling out. With "alchemical" cartridges we are able to have soldiers leave their rounds in the weapon as the cartridges are sealed fairly well and the rounds... USUALLY don't fall out... but that has happened...but leaving rounds in for a long time is bad for the spring in modern weapons and magazines.
When explorers traveled and if they carried a pistol... they carried it in their hand ready (because as you said they are exploring unknown territory, so the weapon was in their hand at the ready and not holstered, just like in the modern army, we travel with loaded weapons but at the low ready) because where the hammer struck or whatever you have initiating an early firearm there was a gap there and powder could leak out and water got in. One of the Big things Baron Von Steuben taught the continental Army to fight the British.
Pirates at sea would start loading their weapons as they came upon a targeted ship, they wouldn't just leave the weapons loaded through out the voyage.
One thing that they started was putting a slight plug on the end of the barrel to help keep out water, the bullet would blow through or push it out without too much or any problem but it still would let moisture in eventually.
Also I would think a simple Heat/Chill metal would cause all kinds of havoc to the packed powder. How about a natural 1 on a fireball save (which by the way, if you didn't know, a failed save on spell that is also a natural 1 means equipment is affected by the attack as well. Page 217, Automatic Failures and Successes.)
What about a desperate man (or goblin) swinging a torch as a weapon? What about being caught in a forest fire?
Also, I'd like to point out that the misfire rules, and what happens to a weapon after two misfires, were pretty elegantly handled in my own opinion. Again, that's just my opinion. 5 foot burst explosion when that pistol decides it isn't stable enough to fire anymore.
I think an important thing to consider here is a game design perspective.
Why should any ranged weapon be objectively better or worse than any other?
At this time (lets ignore guns for a second) bows are objectively better than another other ranged weapon. Your other options are crossbows, and slings.
Crossbows are bows but worse, since you need a feat for a light crossbow to reload as quickly as a bow. But it's a trade that the crossbow is a simple weapon compared to a martial weapon for the bow.
But the damage is the same as a bow. And, instead of spending the feat on rapid reload, you could have just become proficient in the bow.
Honestly, it makes no sense to unfairly penalize the light crossbow for absolutely no advantage. I think it's better to say that if you have all martial weapon proficiencies you can simply reload a light crossbow as a free action, and a heavy crossbow as a move. Why? A heavy crossbow does get a higher damage die, so that's something. Not worth it, but you can make that decision.
Slings should be treated the same, despite their even lower damage die. At least a sling is semi useful then compared to a bow. And a slingstaff should be the same, assuming you have proficiency in it. Neither is better than the bow in any real way, so why make them so terrible to use.
Sure it makes them all very similar, but honestly it's likely only the player is going to notice. And usually the player is trying to choose flavor over optimization when using these other weapons.
So this leads me down to guns. If you willing to do the first part? Why make guns any different really. Make guns reskinned crossbows essentially.
I'm leaning this way mostly because after playing Savage Worlds/Deadlands I think choosing a single set of mechanics and letting players flavor it as whatever they want is vastly easier and more cohesive mechanically then having all these disparate items.
Let's not be spoilsports, a loaded round can easily be viable in there for 24 hours, reload the weapon during downtime.
What does it serve to
I don't believe you that 17th and 18th cenutry explorers didn't use holsters nor slings. There are plenty of historical examples both artefacts and accounts. Hell, it's why pistols are called "sidearms" because they can be held easily on your side.
It is a blatant contrivance that pistols are rendered ineffective unless held constantly. It is a needless complication of a game which is complicated enough as it is.
I say pirates at sea would NOT start loading their weapons as they came upon a targeted ship, they would just leave the weapons loaded through out the voyage. Now which of us is right?
"How about a natural 1 on a fireball save"
How about natrual 20 on summon monster summons Cthulhu?
How about no.
You don't get any circumstance to turn a level 1 spell into such a higher level spell.
Does the charge of powder in that chamber, how could that possibly create a 40ft wide fireball?
"What about a desperate being swinging a torch as a weapon? What about being caught in a forest fire?"
Catching on fire rules state equipment is only affected by fire it (1) the wielder is on fire (2) they fails a DC15 reflex save for said item, and (3) their item is flammable.
Treated wood and steel aren't flammable to licks of flame.
If they were swinging a flaming torch as a club the rules are very clear, take -4 improvised-weapon penalty and small amount of fire damage if it resolves against full-AC along with the light-club damage. Unless they've been doused in oil they themselves aren't flammable so have no chance of catching fire.
If by "desperate swings" you mean to directly target the weapon, that sounds closest to a Sunder attempt. A CM which provokes an AoO and even if succeeded I'd say nothing short of a natural-20 confirmed would include the torch-wilder hitting right on the flintlock mechanism where it would partially open the mechanism and allow flame to ingress it will ignite the shot.
Realise what you are asking for is very particular, it's like asking to cut the strings on a bow or cut off the fingers of someone wielding a sword or slice their Achilles tendon.
"Also, I'd like to point out that the misfire rules, and what happens to a weapon after two misfires, were pretty elegantly handled in my own opinion. Again, that's just my opinion. 5 foot burst explosion when that pistol decides it isn't stable enough to fire anymore."
Except the glorious simplicity of a musket, it has no moving parts.
It's deliberately over-engineered.
Chance "misfire" in the sense of damaging is just not an option, remember "forget what PF said about guns" put that out of your mind. There's no reason for an entirely sealed breach to have any sort of failure.
The way misfires actually work, and the way that isn't going to make the players feel like crap and the way that makes the weapons interesting to handle is a simple flash-in-the-pan. You pull the trigger, the hammer falls, but the frizzen fails. Either the black powder has gotten wet, it has been blown out or despite igniting the flash didn't transfer into the chamber.
In humid environments I can see how this might increase the misfire rate from Natural 1 up to natural 2.
But I think to not be a TOTAL jerk to the players this should not:
-Threaten to blow them up as that's totally contrived
-Totally waste their use of the weapon taking so long to fully reload
Reloading the frizzen should be a much smaller action, just a Move action.
It should take something very substantial to ruin the powder inside the chamber, like the musket being submerged in water for a considerable time, enough to get past attempts to seal the barrel such as wax seals.
Still,
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (5th printing), page 217 wrote: Automatic Failures and Successes
A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure, and the spell may cause damage to exposed items (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success
On the chart, the 4th most common thing to be damaged is an item held in hand. So a fireball is cast on the party, a party member rolls a natural 1 on the reflex, there is a good chance that fireball has now damaged that musket and it would break MY suspension of disbelief if the powder didn't go off and at least prematurely fire the rifle or pistol.
The 1st most common is Shield, 2nd is armor, 3rd is magic helmet, hat or headband.
Also, this comment:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote: "How about a natural 1 on a fireball save"
How about natrual 20 on summon monster summons Cthulhu?
How about no.
You don't get any circumstance to turn a level 1 spell into such a higher level spell.
Felt slightly insulting, especially when in the CRB there actually is a rule that states items can be damaged on a natural 1 saving throw versus a spell.
I'm going to assume that I am very tired this morning and I'm applying an angry or demeaning voice to otherwise voiceless text and not hold it against you, and I fully admit sometimes I read things incorrectly. But if it was meant in an insulting manner, I wish to point out, these are just my opinions, with the exception of the damaged item rule which exists in the magic chapter. In no way am I trying to force you to play a certain way, or saying your way is wrong. In fact, I sort of like your changes in regards to a world I want to craft based on the video game Darkest Dungeon, and I may steal some of your houserules when I run it.
@Alex
well calling them sidearms came out more during what you would consider the wildwest. When they had the plethora hip holster, colt even going so far as to sell them with the gun as a marketing gimick.
But they did have holsters and other means for carrying pistols.. largely because people are lazy and would rather sling a weapon than carry it at the read.
But the problem with muzzle loaders is that you tilt it upside down and your ball and shot poured out unless you put a stopper in. But stoppers weren't kept in for long as they were a cloth or paper and If it got wet it just clogged.
Look at examples in the Revolutionary War. They didn't march about with loaded weapons mostly because wet powder is little different than wet sand. Wet Sand in the breach equals non operational firearm. Especially if the wet sand is your propellant.
And the rifleman were giving marching orders and loaded and readied rifles by command. So they didn't travel with loaded weapons, but that isn't constant. Some frontiersman would have loaded weapons always like the other more clandestine units in the American Revolution. Now the PC's could easily follow this example instead of rank and file training for traditional armies.
The take home is thus, Golarion is a fantasy world, with fantasy weapons based on real weapons. The training and doctrine would be a lot different and you can impose those ideas as the GM. Its your world, if you choose to implement some realism and not all that is your choice. If you implement full realism then essentially of Hit points damage should be resolved against their constitution score... so 1 hit kills can be very common. If you do all fantasy.. do all fantasy.. but when you implement a part of realism in with large amounts of fantasy it feels pathetic and is often ignored for something else.
Sorry, I got the idea you meant a natural-1 on a save against a low level spell like Burning Disarm would have the EFFECT of a Fireball spell.
I didn't realise you meant "what if fireball was cast on them and they got a natural 1 on reflex save"
And really, most GM's are not so cruel as to start destroying people's valuable items. I mean things like burning Wizard's spellbook, that's just a "dick move". GM can say that rocks fall and adventurers die, but why? it's hardly an unreasonable conceit to keep the game going that items are fine unless they are specifically targeted or left in major jeopardy like drawn and then dropped into lava.
But as to the weapon being discharged lets establish the chain of events:
-Fire or heat affect that affects the whole person with an option for reflex save
-get a natural 1 on personal reflex save
-it actually affects the firearm based on probability of item being affected*
-Fail the DC15 reflex save for the firearm on your person
-the damage exceeds the weapon's hardness (relevant here is steel with hardness 10 and energy effects do half damage before trying to overcome hardness)
*the "probability of being affected" doesn't actually make clear how one is more or less likely to be affected. Unless someone else has an explanation, after a natural 1 on personal reflex save they keep making Reflex saves (against DC15 for catching fire) for each item till they succeed for ANY of them then it stops going down the list.
I think that is fair considering a flintlock mechanism is designed to entirely cover the frizzen filled with black powder.
This would be moot with percussion caps, though they would instead by vulnerable to sonic/force effects.
Also, Book Ward spell is actually for ANY object (up to 10lbs per level, 1day/level) gives easily immunity from certain damage types.
Though I'd still be VERY hesitant to even allow this as pathfinder doesn't have facing rules. It doesn't have pointing rules. if a weapon were to discharge, which direction should the shot go? I'd say roll d8 for direction, anyone in that square a d20 is rolled and on a natural-20 they are hit (normal hit, no chance of crit). If they are in the same direction as the d8 but further away then only a natural-20 for EACH 5ft of distance means they get hit.
So yes, it's possible that a random discharge, someone who is 30ft away might be hit by the bullet. But there's a 1 in 512 million chance of getting the worst 1d8 and 6 natural-20's in a row.
as GM I'd likely say "the gun discharges into the ground. Next on the initiative is" and move on.
I have a similar set of rules with one notable exception. Firearms are not any more expensive than a good sword.
I have similar goals. I feel that dedicated ranged combat is already well covered with bows and crossbows. I want firearms to be alpha strike weapons, not mainstay weapons.
To that end
Make all firearms simple.
Doubled the base damage of all firearms.
Change the crit multiplier to 18-20/x2.
Increased the reload time to 1 full round(1 standard action with Rapid Reload)
All firearms get dex to damage.
This makes firearms a useful weapon for switch hitters and skirmishers.
Angry Ghost: "calling them sidearms came out more during what you would consider the wildwest."
I don't know where you are getting that.
"But they did have holsters and other means for carrying pistols.. largely because people are lazy and would rather sling a weapon than carry it at the read."
It's not just that, they need their arms for other things like climbing, rowing, carrying or shoving things. I don't know why you raised these problems of supposed limitations on firearms.
"But the problem with muzzle loaders is that you tilt it upside down and your ball and shot poured out unless you put a stopper in. But stoppers weren't kept in for long as they were a cloth or paper and If it got wet it just clogged."
Well then put some sort of stopper in... we've already covered this.
Certainly in the short term it's not a problem, the shot is packed in tight. If it was so easy for it to just drop out of the barrel then it would be easy to just drop it INTO the barrel but that isn't the case, you have to force it down with a ram-rod.
"but when you implement a part of realism in with large amounts of fantasy it feels pathetic and is often ignored for something else."
I disagree.
I see no reason why it has to be all or nothing by your narrow interpretation. Just because there is magic doesn't mean everything else has to be utterly detached from reality. Magic in Pathfinder is contained and limited, it doesn't mean that any attempt at common sense and basic reasoning is impossible.
Wearing holsters in the old west is almost a movie/TV thing. Most gunfighers in the old west wore tied sashes with pistols thrust into them as commercial holsters were pretty much unavailable until about 1890. Wild Bill Hickock wore a tied sash, for example. The military did have holsters, even during the civil war, however, they were cumbersome to use - impossible to quick draw from (but they did exist). So the idea of 17th and 18th century pistols having holsters, in truth, was non-existent. Pistols were shoved into belts, sashes, and saddlebags during those centuries.
You are correct in stating that black powder weapons were packed very tight, otherwise your round wouldn't travel far, and the likelihood of ball and shot falling out of your weapon only happened if you didn't pack your round properly (and if you didn't pack it properly, even if it didn't fall out, it was a wasteful shot with little effect).
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote: Angry Ghost: "calling them sidearms came out more during what you would consider the wildwest."
I don't know where you are getting that.
"But they did have holsters and other means for carrying pistols.. largely because people are lazy and would rather sling a weapon than carry it at the read."
It's not just that, they need their arms for other things like climbing, rowing, carrying or shoving things. I don't know why you raised these problems of supposed limitations on firearms.
"But the problem with muzzle loaders is that you tilt it upside down and your ball and shot poured out unless you put a stopper in. But stoppers weren't kept in for long as they were a cloth or paper and If it got wet it just clogged."
Well then put some sort of stopper in... we've already covered this.
Certainly in the short term it's not a problem, the shot is packed in tight. If it was so easy for it to just drop out of the barrel then it would be easy to just drop it INTO the barrel but that isn't the case, you have to force it down with a ram-rod.
"but when you implement a part of realism in with large amounts of fantasy it feels pathetic and is often ignored for something else."
I disagree.
I see no reason why it has to be all or nothing by your narrow interpretation. Just because there is magic doesn't mean everything else has to be utterly detached from reality. Magic in Pathfinder is contained and limited, it doesn't mean that any attempt at common sense and basic reasoning is impossible.
And that is as you stated to me, your opinion.
My experience comes from 14 years of military service (still serving) and training. Also being stationed at places like West Point where all the preach is Military History and Doctrine. Also my experiences in my youth with my friends and his father doing black powder shooting. Then being stationed in Germany and taking up Archery at a club as well as the tours up to and through the castles where the guides explained weapons and sometimes we saw re-enactments in Germany and at Gettysburg. Also my buddy that I play with Pathfinder here does fencing.
So its not like im pulling this stuff out my @$$.
Also with 20+ years of GMing for everything D&D ( also AD&D), Shadowrun, Earthdawn and everything inbetween. Just off my evaluation and experience I am simply trying to note problems you may run across mostly because I have encountered the problems in the past. You asked I provided answers. I am giving a lot of suggestions on fixes and reasons for the fixes. Its your world, so you can do what you want. I gave you suggestions based on what I confirmed on questions.
gamer-printer wrote: Wearing holsters in the old west is almost a movie/TV thing. Most gunfighers in the old west wore tied sashes with pistols thrust into them as commercial holsters were pretty much unavailable until about 1890. Wild Bill Hickock wore a tied sash, for example. The military did have holsters, even during the civil war, however, they were cumbersome to use - impossible to quick draw from (but they did exist). So the idea of 17th and 18th century pistols having holsters, in truth, was non-existent. Pistols were shoved into belts, sashes, and saddlebags during those centuries.
You are correct in stating that black powder weapons were packed very tight, otherwise your round wouldn't travel far, and the likelihood of ball and shot falling out of your weapon only happened if you didn't pack your round properly (and if you didn't pack it properly, even if it didn't fall out, it was a wasteful shot with little effect).
Well when casting our own ball and shot... the sizes varied and they didn't always end up circular even when poured into the mold.
You could pack them tight as you always wanted to do. But if traveling with a loaded weapon muzzle was up. If unloaded, it was muzzle down.
Lead balls were soft and would change their shape to accommodate the barrel and create for a more snug fit but they still wore down and could fall or roll out.
Yup, if not packed well too much energy was lost inside the barrel, gun powder was packed tightly to maximize its blast even in Sticks of Dynamite.
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I'm sure someone brought this up but to reiterate the issue with removing shots and reliability from firearms is what do they have left? Nothing really.
In pathfinder reliability, volley, and power are kind of the metrics by which you measure whether or not a ranged weapon is worth it and these only get worse as you level up and increase your ways of shrugging damage. In games like Call of Cthulhu ancient firearms that fire once a minute and do 1d10 work fine because you've maybe got 18 health max if you are an Adonis of personal health and take weeks to recover from. In pathfinder 4d6+2 (assuming base damage and a +2 for enhancements) is less than the Fireball the sorc can throw about every round if they want or what a Young White dragon can do with just his breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. Neither of those are uncommon, hell the dragon is just 1 over APL for the earliest someone could feasibly afford a +2 weapon following wbl.
In other words if you are going to be taking away attacks per round you need to up the damage to compensate A LOT. If I'm losing a round of attacks and I'm getting two attacks a round and I cannot shorten that the damage needs to be like 4 hits. Hell, I'd actually say closer to maybe 6 since if I miss it's like I've missed all of my attacks for 2 solid rounds. These numbers scale up the more time you're planning to take away from them. Otherwise people just won't use it.
This is why things like the crank crossbow out of RTT or the caltrop spear from Giant Hunters never get used. They are weapons designed to be too expensive both in feats and cash while also being unreliable to ever make you want to invest in them as a character.
doc the grey wrote: I'm sure someone brought this up but to reiterate the issue with removing shots and reliability from firearms is what do they have left? Nothing really.
In pathfinder reliability, volley, and power are kind of the metrics by which you measure whether or not a ranged weapon is worth it and these only get worse as you level up and increase your ways of shrugging damage. In games like Call of Cthulhu ancient firearms that fire once a minute and do 1d10 work fine because you've maybe got 18 health max if you are an Adonis of personal health and take weeks to recover from. In pathfinder 4d6+2 (assuming base damage and a +2 for enhancements) is less than the Fireball the sorc can throw about every round if they want or what a Young White dragon can do with just his breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. Neither of those are uncommon, hell the dragon is just 1 over APL for the earliest someone could feasibly afford a +2 weapon following wbl.
In other words if you are going to be taking away attacks per round you need to up the damage to compensate A LOT. If I'm losing a round of attacks and I'm getting two attacks a round and I cannot shorten that the damage needs to be like 4 hits. Hell, I'd actually say closer to maybe 6 since if I miss it's like I've missed all of my attacks for 2 solid rounds. These numbers scale up the more time you're planning to take away from them. Otherwise people just won't use it.
This is why things like the crank crossbow out of RTT or the caltrop spear from Giant Hunters never get used. They are weapons designed to be too expensive both in feats and cash while also being unreliable to ever make you want to invest in them as a character.
Think about these play styles: Switch hitting, skirmishing, and sniping.
Most ranged weapons do a small amount of damage per shot, but make up with it via a large number of shots. Take a longbow for example. At level 10, I would expect to be doing around 1d8 + 4(strength) + 3(enhancement) + 4(class features) = ~15 damage a shot.
Now normally someone who wants to be good at bow will invest in manyshot, rapid shot, precise shot, point blank shot. With this heavy feat investment, you get 3 shots at -2, and one at -7 at level 10. This also means that when you cannot full attack, your damage is quite lack luster.
Now what does a skirmisher/sniper want? They want maximum hit and run/hide potential. To accomplish this, you want something that plays well with vital strike. Taking a full round action to reload isn't a big deal when you are hiding or in cover.
What does a switch hitter want? Something that can be effective without a huge feat investment. A switch hitter could use these firearms without feats and do decent damage until they ran out of loaded weapons.
I personally have different ideas for accomplishing these things than the OP, but those would be my stated goals for similar firearms changes.
TLDR: The current rules and meta in pathfinder focus on rapid firing ranged weapons. Some of us would like to see more options for other builds/ideas to be effective. We can accomplish this by changing the firearms rules.
Charender wrote: I have a similar set of rules with one notable exception. Firearms are not any more expensive than a good sword.
I have similar goals. I feel that dedicated ranged combat is already well covered with bows and crossbows. I want firearms to be alpha strike weapons, not mainstay weapons.
To that end
Make all firearms simple.
Doubled the base damage of all firearms.
Change the crit multiplier to 18-20/x2.
Increased the reload time to 1 full round(1 standard action with Rapid Reload)
All firearms get dex to damage.
This makes firearms a useful weapon for switch hitters and skirmishers.
I'm with you on all that, except one thing... get to that in a sec
Yeah, on pricing, 1000gp is a bit overboard. That's half a weapon +1 magic, that's a whole armour +1. That's more than a 50-charge wand. Maybe 350gp is more suitable for a musket, about the price of a masterwork sword. Or maybe Firearms can only be in masterwork variants?
Double base damage (from PF guns) would turn a musket from 1d12 to 2d12. Kinda what I had in mind with 4d6 and 4d6 would be a bit more formal as PF damage scaling does move to d6's above a certain number. 2d8 for a pistol goes from pretty weak to pretty damn strong.
I think you're also right about the crits being 18-20/x2 rather than anything like x3 or x4 on a natural 20. Otherwise you have the weird spectre of a chance of insanely high damage output like 16d6 (average 56 damage). That's just monstrous and erring on the side of too powerful, that by such a fluke the first hit could too seriously unbalance engagements. But 18-20 I think more generously reflects how a powerful penetrating strike of a lead bullet has greater potential for, by chance, a hit being much more powerful.
Also, we're actually back to where PF guns started concerning crits. Original PF guns had 'A' damage with x4 crit multiplier for 4xA damage on confirmed crit. Now they are 2xA damage base with x2 crit for a confirmed crit of 2x2xA = 4xA damage. The change is better damage in general and more likely of threatening a crit.
I'm quite keen on a hard limit of 1 full round action to reload otherwise what role does Heavy Crossbow have? 6 seconds (length of a round) is about as fast as anyone can possibly load even a relatively short barrel musket even with aides like articulating ramrods. Reducing it to a standard action is just too much. Just to make feats like Rapid Reload not a complete waste I'd allow the Full Round Action of reloading to be combined with "moving up to base movement speed that provokes normally" but not the idea that it takes just a little more than 3 seconds to load from the muzzle.
Though there is one thing I would have a problem with an that's Dex bonus to damage.
That's really stonking powerful. Some characters can have huge dex. And it's going to double with a crit.
It's a 2000gp magic enhancement to put that on a melee weapon (Agile special ability), a single melee weapon, one that you could drop or have disarmed in any dungeon and lose forever. And for that it has to be a finesse weapon which rules out the ever useful reach weapons so you have to risk a lot getting up-close-and-personal where you're at huge risk. So all firearms having it is a freaking hugely powerful ability. Along with expanded crit range and high base damage, it's a stronker.
Charender wrote: Now what does a skirmisher/sniper want? They want maximum hit and run/hide potential. To accomplish this, you want something that plays well with vital strike. Taking a full round action to reload isn't a big deal when you are hiding or in cover. Yeah, that's it. That's really the kind of feel I'm wanting to cater to.
Its for both on the offence and on the defence, say for example you come across the all powerful huge tentacled boss who throws flaming boulders at everything that moves. Players are understandably terrified of such encounters, they want to run and hide as much as possible, only exposing themselves for a moment to squeeze off a shot.
Normally running and hiding is just... well it's a bad idea, conventionally you should spend every round engaged trying to hit as often and as hard as possible. Here, if you run off behind some shattered pillars there is something you can do OTHER than maneuver around to just take another stab at it.
"TLDR: The current rules and meta in pathfinder focus on rapid firing ranged weapons. Some of us would like to see more options for other builds/ideas to be effective. We can accomplish this by changing the firearms rules."
Nailed it.
Doc: "In pathfinder 4d6+2 (assuming base damage and a +2 for enhancements) is less than the Fireball the sorc can throw about every round if they want or what a Young White dragon can do with just his breath weapon every 1d4 rounds."
Well one is a spell that a only caster's such as 6th Level Sorcerer can use (even then using up one of 3-5 spells of that level per day), of course something that has such requirements should be better than a simple weapon. What if that sorcerer didn't want to use a spell? Or had run out of spells? Or the many limitations on spells make spellcasting impractical?
Also a young white dragon is a CR6 monster that is supposed to be normally matched by 3-4 adventurers of around 6th level.
"In other words if you are going to be taking away attacks per round you need to up the damage to compensate A LOT."
You're not wasting opportunities to attack if you're switch hitting. When they're well beyond range or too cautious to advance, whoop out your gun and shoot them then don't bother reloading, get right in there into melee.
Lets say you take that standard action to shoot you then use movement left to run into a corner. Yes, in the next turn you aren't hitting for potential damage in that round but by disengaging they can't take hits against you either.
That's sniping. It's very much what rogues or otherwise more squidgy players depend on as they just can't stick in one place to get noticed and wailed on. It also gets around limitations on stealth with sniping as although the cacophonous blast of the muzzle cannot be missed, disengaging for a round and turning up in some completely different place it's a lot easier to pull an effective stealth roll and then get that sneaks.
Or, near the end of a fight, you need to end this fight now or never you can't move to hit them, can't charge them, but you can move to get a good line of sight. With BAB +1 or higher; move and free action draw a weapon, standard action take a shot when otherwise you may not have been able to do anything. Hell, it's 18-20/x2 you've got a pretty good chance of getting a crit. It's the kind of risky hail-mary pass I want to make possible in Pathfinder, to keep games on the edge till the very end.
Someone mentioned how rifled muskets should be handled and I was really unsure as smoothbore muskets were slow enough to load anyway, rifled barrel muskets were notoriously even slower to load.
But in my research I found inspiration for a mechanic that might be quite useful.
It was an actual feature seen with the Baker Rifle. The barrel was rifled, but the general use was such that a normal round ball that was slightly undersized could easily be dropped down the barrel the same as if smoothbore. Easier in fact, a lubricated lead ball could drop down the barrel and with a combination of gravity and blowing down the barrel would seat the ball. But if accuracy was needed an appropriate sized conical bullet could be loaded, meshing close with the rifling, but this would literally take a literal minute to carefully tap and screw the bullet down the barrel.
So you have an variable loading status. You could - out of combat - load a fitted conical bullet for all the accuracy and precision. Then once you'd fired that shot, you could reload spend just one round reloading it with a much less accurate round.
Or is this too complicated?
Is it too detached from PF's more streamlines abstractions?
Or is it just an option which when available will obviously always be taken? As in little different from something like Amentum or whetstone.
But how would this change things?
Even the earliest rifled muskets demonstrated extraordinary accuracy, more than had ever been seen on the battlefield before. How should this be reflected in the stats? Will an extremely long range increment really do justice? A +4 bonus to confirming crits? Inherent extension to sneak-attack range?
Charender wrote: doc the grey wrote: I'm sure someone brought this up but to reiterate the issue with removing shots and reliability from firearms is what do they have left? Nothing really.
In pathfinder reliability, volley, and power are kind of the metrics by which you measure whether or not a ranged weapon is worth it and these only get worse as you level up and increase your ways of shrugging damage. In games like Call of Cthulhu ancient firearms that fire once a minute and do 1d10 work fine because you've maybe got 18 health max if you are an Adonis of personal health and take weeks to recover from. In pathfinder 4d6+2 (assuming base damage and a +2 for enhancements) is less than the Fireball the sorc can throw about every round if they want or what a Young White dragon can do with just his breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. Neither of those are uncommon, hell the dragon is just 1 over APL for the earliest someone could feasibly afford a +2 weapon following wbl.
In other words if you are going to be taking away attacks per round you need to up the damage to compensate A LOT. If I'm losing a round of attacks and I'm getting two attacks a round and I cannot shorten that the damage needs to be like 4 hits. Hell, I'd actually say closer to maybe 6 since if I miss it's like I've missed all of my attacks for 2 solid rounds. These numbers scale up the more time you're planning to take away from them. Otherwise people just won't use it.
This is why things like the crank crossbow out of RTT or the caltrop spear from Giant Hunters never get used. They are weapons designed to be too expensive both in feats and cash while also being unreliable to ever make you want to invest in them as a character.
Think about these play styles: Switch hitting, skirmishing, and sniping.
Most ranged weapons do a small amount of damage per shot, but make up with it via a large number of shots. Take a longbow for example. At level 10, I would expect to be doing around 1d8 + 4(strength) + 3(enhancement) + 4(class features) =... Well I will tell you what I wanted as a designated marksman, the ability to engage and quickly re-engage a new target. Which is why we are using the SAS semi-automatic sniper system and not really the old bolt action rifles. If you going to simply "assassinate" then ok.. one good shot.. but a party of characters... you essentially want to engage your next target.
@ Alex Trebek's Stunt Double
well im out
Everyone and their dog has tried to give you advice and opinions but your sticking with your guns. Good for you, but if you are already dead set on your choice why ask here unless you are wanting other people to simply agree and pat you on the back?
later
@Angry Ghost
Fighting a war and playing Pathfinder are different in a fundamental way.
Pathfinder is a game which is supposed to have a blend of challenge and dynamism. It's supposed to be a fun care-free fantasy as no lives are actually at stake.
War isn't that at all.
War is a serious duty carried out by professionals where their objective is about reliably winning. I really don't care if some death-cult finds it unfair that our side dispatches their side with cold efficiency, it's not a game. Good. I hope they find it so unfair that the totally and unconditionally surrender, if they have any sense they should.
But Pathfinder is a game, it's storytelling through role play, and roll play. The game isn't supposed to be made easy. It's supposed to have challenge, drama and complex scenarios. So I think that's where your comparison fails.
It's right to want and get a rapid fire ultra-deadly rifle in real life as it's a not a game.
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