Classification of melee / ranged weapons


Rules Questions


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This is probably the silliest corner case of RAW vs RAI out there. You've probably never questioned this in the past.

Is a dagger considered a ranged weapon when used in melee combat and is it considered a melee weapon when thrown?

I'm sure you're asking yourself, "How is this an actual question?" The answer is, of course, Card Caster Magus. But let's walk through the steps here.

CRB, Equipment chapter wrote:
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
CRB, Equipment chapter wrote:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons.

These entries appear to create a venn diagram: there are melee weapons, ranged weapons, and a selection of melee weapons that are also ranged weapons. These hybrid freaks are thrown weapons...sometimes. Notice the net? That's always a ranged weapon in the CRB and Ultimate Equipment. There's also the Chakram, which is a ranged weapon that has a sub-optimal use as a melee weapon.

Ultimate Magic, Magus class wrote:
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Here's where we start to run into problems: this specifies "attacks with [a] melee weapon" and not "melee attacks."

Magus wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

So, here we see the requirement for a melee attack, which is replaced by...

Harrow Handbook, Card Caster Magus wrote:

Harrowed Spellstrike (Su)

Beginning at 2nd level, a card caster can invest a single thrown weapon with a single touch or ranged spell as part of the spell's normal casting time. The spell must target a single creature, and the spell's range changes to match the thrown weapon's range increment. This ability otherwise functions identically to spellstrike, except it can only be applied to thrown ranged weapons instead of melee attacks.

This ability replaces and modifies spellstrike.

...and here, we see "thrown ranged weapons" (which may or may not include melee weapons that can be thrown) instead of "melee attacks."

Heretofore, the assumption is that this archetype doesn't work by RAW because you couldn't Spell Combat with a thrown weapon. We then have odd precedent thrown at us (HA!) via this handy-dandy FAQ:

Quote:

Alternate Ability Score-Based Checks: If I change the key ability score of a skill (or other check), for example, if I change Knowledge from Intelligence to Charisma, is it no-longer an Intelligence-based check? Is it now a Charisma-based check?

Generally yes—at the time of rolling a check, if you substitute the ability score, the check is now based on the new ability score. In the example, at the time of rolling, Knowledge would now be a Charisma-based skill and not an Intelligence-based skill for you, which would affect things like feats, spells, or items that grant bonuses on checks based on their key ability score (like circlet of persuasion). However, if you are adding a second ability modifier to a check, this is not the case. For instance, when adding both Wisdom and Dexterity on initiative checks, initiative is still a Dexterity check, not a Wisdom check. Also, this changes the check only at the time of rolling, so this does not change static class features or options made during character building such as your class’s class skills. Classes that receive “all Intelligence-based skills” as class skills, for instance, are the victim of sloppy writing, and furthermore sometimes effects might muddy the water by only changing the ability dependency sometimes and not others, which is why you check the new dependency only for a specific given roll.

If this ruling is transferrable, it would indicate that a dagger is a melee weapon, except when you're throwing it, at which point it becomes a ranged thrown weapon. If that's the case, great! It prevents other silly questions in the rules, like applying melee feats to ranged attacks with thrown weapons. It completely answers the outstanding questions about the Card Caster archetype (in fact, it would be just as non-functional as people have said). It poses some odd questions about Fighter Weapon Training for Thrown Weapons, of course (i.e. does it apply to melee dagger attacks), but that's not terribly surprising.

So, thoughts? Opinions?

Sczarni

Serisan wrote:
the assumption is that this archetype doesn't work by RAW

Pathfinder doesn't work by "RAW".

The rules assume some common sense (yes, yes, "not common", and all that) and an understanding that communication through text requires interpretation.

By "RAW" you must be in contact with a housefly in order to use a Metamagic Rod.

Eschew "RAW", and the game makes sense.


A weapon, at any given moment, is whatever you're using it as. If you want to hurl your halberd at an enemy, then during that attack, it's a ranged weapon.

If you want to beat someone to death with your crossbow, then during that attack, it's an improvised melee weapon.

If you want to strap two greatswords to your feet and slide down a mountain, then at that time, those are skis, not weapons.


DM_Blake wrote:

A weapon, at any given moment, is whatever you're using it as. If you want to hurl your halberd at an enemy, then during that attack, it's a ranged weapon.

If you want to beat someone to death with your crossbow, then during that attack, it's an improvised melee weapon.

If you want to strap two greatswords to your feet and slide down a mountain, then at that time, those are skis, not weapons.

Your last assumption is incorrect. The purpose you use them for does not transform them.

You are skiing without the proper tools, incurring a -2 to the related roll. They are still swords.

Otherwise I agree.


Yeah, well, the last one was just for fun.

Sure, you're hurling a halberd, bludgeoning with a crossbow, and skiing with swords. I totally get that. But, at the moment, they're not very weaponish; they're much more skiish.


DM_Blake wrote:

Yeah, well, the last one was just for fun.

Sure, you're hurling a halberd, bludgeoning with a crossbow, and skiing with swords. I totally get that. But, at the moment, they're not very weaponish; they're much more skiish.

I was just being a jerk, don't take me seriously. Except now, when I'm saying to not take me seriously. :D

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