fatbaldbloke |
Hi folks,
friend of mine is playing a Rogue in Way of the Wicked and has the Sap Adept, Sap Master feats. He's been very effective so far with a lot of sneaking up on distracted opponents or getting into flanking positions courtesy of my Antipaladin.
However we're fairly sure that there's plenty enemies coming up where getting off sneak attacks is going to be a lot more difficult for him. I'm looking for a few suggestions for those fights where he's not going to be able to score big non-lethal damage on our targets.
Any useful suggestions gratefully accepted....but please no posts about 'Play a Bard/Ninja/Inquisitor/Investigator instead' he's really enjoying this character so far, especially from an rp point of view and doesn't want to mess about switching classes.
Charon's Little Helper |
or getting into flanking positions courtesy of my Antipaladin.
You guys do know that Sap Adept/Master don't work when flanking - right?
Actually - you generally get a lot less of the 'play something else' now with Unchained Rogue out - it's a solid martial class now. (I'm assuming that he's unchained - if not - it's a pretty easy conversion and is a straight upgrade.)
My suggestion is to just deal with having reduced damage. That's the whole disadvantage to Sap Master, it's an amazing feat for anyone with SA, but it doesn't work all of the time. *shrug*
Avoron |
Is the issue that your enemies will be immune to sneak attack, or that your enemies will be difficult to surprise or flank? Because if it's the latter, your friend might be able to work with spellcasters in the party to have them use spells like Grease or Ice Slick, causing enemies to use Acrobatics to move, which makes them flat-footed and lets him use Sap Master.
Other than that, it depends heavily on what level the party is at. If the damage he can deal won't contribute, maybe there's a combat maneuver he's invested in that could help. Or maybe he can use a wand with UMD. Maybe some other skill he has could be useful. And if all else fails, there's always flanking and aid another, so long as his defenses are okay.
Charon's Little Helper |
Could always go down ye olde Dirty Trick line-up. Sure, it's a lot of feats to get everything, but it's a highly effective combat maneuver. Otherwise, Aid Another is almost always welcome.
I've gotta disagree. While it fits the vibe - Rogues are very bad at any maneuver, including Dirty Trick.
As to Grease - by RAW it doesn't cause the flat-footed condition like it did in 3.5, though some of the supporting text was carried over.
fatbaldbloke |
fatbaldbloke wrote:or getting into flanking positions courtesy of my Antipaladin.You guys do know that Sap Adept/Master don't work when flanking - right?
Actually - you generally get a lot less of the 'play something else' now with Unchained Rogue out - it's a solid martial class now. (I'm assuming that he's unchained - if not - it's a pretty easy conversion and is a straight upgrade.)
My suggestion is to just deal with having reduced damage. That's the whole disadvantage to Sap Master, it's an amazing feat for anyone with SA, but it doesn't work all of the time. *shrug*
Actually I didn't even realise that the Sap Master wouldn't work when flanking, my mistake, but to be fair to him when he's been flanking with me he's generally been using short swords anyway.
Not got the Unchained book yet, will get him to have a look at it though when I do. Am I right in thinking that an Unchained rogue can get Dex to damage pretty easily?
Charon's Little Helper |
Not got the Unchained book yet, will get him to have a look at it though when I do. Am I right in thinking that an Unchained rogue can get Dex to damage pretty easily?
Yep - the get weapon finesse for free @1 - and at 3 they get to pick one finesse-able weapon to get dex-to-damage with - more as they level.
Of note - is the character with Sap Master actually using saps? If he burns another feat he can use any bludgeoning weapon - making it so that he only has to enchant one set of weapons. Enchanting 4 different weapons gets WAY too expensive.
Rerednaw |
Charon's Little Helper wrote:fatbaldbloke wrote:or getting into flanking positions courtesy of my Antipaladin.You guys do know that Sap Adept/Master don't work when flanking - right?
Actually - you generally get a lot less of the 'play something else' now with Unchained Rogue out - it's a solid martial class now. (I'm assuming that he's unchained - if not - it's a pretty easy conversion and is a straight upgrade.)
My suggestion is to just deal with having reduced damage. That's the whole disadvantage to Sap Master, it's an amazing feat for anyone with SA, but it doesn't work all of the time. *shrug*
Actually I didn't even realise that the Sap Master wouldn't work when flanking, my mistake, but to be fair to him when he's been flanking with me he's generally been using short swords anyway.
Not got the Unchained book yet, will get him to have a look at it though when I do. Am I right in thinking that an Unchained rogue can get Dex to damage pretty easily?
Unchained rogue gets dex to damage (pick 1 finessable weapon at 3rd level) and weapon finesse as a class feature at level 1. 1.5x with two-handers like elven curve blade/branch spear, .5 dex damage with off-hand.
And yes Sap Master requires foe being not precision immune AND flat-footed. Flank <> flat-footed. FF is hard to get without optimizing. Most go scout archetype in my experience and wait or use Shatter Defense builds or both.
fatbaldbloke |
fatbaldbloke wrote:Not got the Unchained book yet, will get him to have a look at it though when I do. Am I right in thinking that an Unchained rogue can get Dex to damage pretty easily?Yep - the get weapon finesse for free @1 - and at 3 they get to pick one finesse-able weapon to get dex-to-damage with - more as they level.
Of note - is the character with Sap Master actually using saps? If he burns another feat he can use any bludgeoning weapon - making it so that he only has to enchant one set of weapons. Enchanting 4 different weapons gets WAY too expensive.
Yeah he is using Saps at moment, we're due to level up soon so he'll have a feat to burn.
I'll definitely need to pick up a copy of Unchained sounds like.
Jasmine Henderthane |
I not only strike my enemies in vital places to knock them unconscious, I strike fear into their hearts.
Enforcer and Intimidate pairs very well with sap master. (Thug/Scout archetypes also help this type of build).
Skill Unlock from unchained rogue makes this even more ridiculous.
Scout helps with treating enemies as flat-footed for sap master, and eventually you can take shatter defenses to help with your later attacks.
This profile has a very unusual sap master build (didn't get sap master till 9th).