PFS: One Creature Grappling Multiple Targets


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can one creature grapple multiple targets? I am currently working on a Witch (White-haired) and Brawler (Strangler) combination. Can the White haired witch make more than one grapple with her hair? For instance, Can the hair on her head grapple one target, and the hair under her armpit grapple another? The witch does not gain the grappled condition and there is no mention of "how much" hair is needed to grapple a target. Obviously it would be restricted to the number of attacks she has. Can I grab on an AoO? So with Combat Reflexes, Dex 18, and BAB +6, could I grapple 6 targets (as long as circumstances allow it)? How would these mechanics work?

If so, using Greater Grapple, can a Witch maintain more than one grapple at a time since it only requires a move action and she can make two checks in a round? Are both the checks together considered a move action or is each its own separate move action? In other words, can I make both checks as part of one move action and then have a standard action left?

With Greater Grapple and the Constrict Ability, can a white-haired witch basically do 4 instances of damage? Constrict as swift action when maintaining the grapple, and the damage resulting as part of the two checks for maintaining, and using a standard action to attack the target?

Relevant Text:

White Hair (Su) wrote:

At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a white-haired witch’s hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of 30 feet at 20th level.

The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature.

In addition, a white-haired witch further improves her ability to control her hair as she progresses in level, gaining the following abilities:

Constrict (Ex): At 2nd level, when the white-haired witch’s hair successfully grapples an opponent, it can begin constricting her victim as a swift action, dealing damage equal to that of its attack.

Trip (Ex): At 4th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to trip the creature as a swift action.

Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a swift action.

Strangle (Ex): At 8th level, when the white-haired witch’s hair is grappling with an opponent, that creature is considered strangled, and cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.

This ability replaces hex.

Greater Grapple wrote:
You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.


Armpit hair? Really? As if manga-hair-witch isn't weird enough, you had to with armpit hair?

You asked about a gajillion questions, so I'll try to cover them all:

Can one creature grapple multiple targets? Yes.
Can the White haired witch make more than one grapple with her hair? Yes
For instance, Can the hair on her head grapple one target, and the hair under her armpit grapple another? Yuck. Or you could just use some head hair for one grapple and some other head hair for the other grapple. If you're a Tolkein hobbit, you could probably use foot hair. The game doesn't care where the hair is. Yes, you could even use that hair if you want.
Obviously it would be restricted to the number of attacks she has. Correct.
Can I grab on an AoO? Yes. It says it's a Free action but there is a FAQ saying it works like the monster ability Grab which has been FAQ'd to work off-turn.
So with Combat Reflexes, Dex 18, and BAB +6, could I grapple 6 targets (as long as circumstances allow it)? Yes.
How would these mechanics work? On your turn, you have two attacks. If both hit different targets, you GRAB them (free grapple attempt). During the enemies' turns, they provoke and you attack, hit, and GRAB 4 more times for a total of 6 grappled foes. Simple as that. When it's your next turn, you can pick one of them to maintain the grapple if you want to, but you'll have to release all the others - you can only maintain one grapple as a Standard action.

If so, using Greater Grapple, can a Witch maintain more than one grapple at a time since it only requires a move action and she can make two checks in a round? Yes.
Are both the checks together considered a move action or is each its own separate move action? Each check is its own move action.
In other words, can I make both checks as part of one move action and then have a standard action left? No.

With Greater Grapple and the Constrict Ability, can a white-haired witch basically do 4 instances of damage? There is no synergy with the witch's version of Constrict (only used on the turn when you start a grapple) and Greater Grapple (only used when maintaining a grapple). If you have ONE enemy grappled, you could maintain that grapple as a move action and still make ONE standard attack to hit and GRAB and constrict a different target.
Constrict as swift action when maintaining the grapple, and the damage resulting as part of the two checks for maintaining, and using a standard action to attack the target? Monsters can use Constrict when they maintain a grapple but witches cannot. Maybe talk this over with your GM to see if he will allow Witch constrict to work like the Universal Monster Ability - as written, it does not. Also, if you maintain TWO grapples you use TWO move actions so you cannot also have a Standard action to attack anything.

I hope that covers it all.


Quote:
Can the White haired witch make more than one grapple with her hair?

I don't think anything prevents you from grappling multiple targets.

Quote:
Can I grab on an AoO?

Yes, it says you can grab whenever your hair strikes a foe.

Quote:
So with Combat Reflexes, Dex 18, and BAB +6, could I grapple 6 targets (as long as circumstances allow it)? How would these mechanics work?

Yes, you could grapple up to 6 foes, but on your turn it would only be possible to maintain one of the grapples (or two with Greater Grapple.)

Quote:
If so, using Greater Grapple, can a Witch maintain more than one grapple at a time since it only requires a move action and she can make two checks in a round? Are both the checks together considered a move action or is each its own separate move action? In other words, can I make both checks as part of one move action and then have a standard action left?

Each grapple you maintain is its own separate move action. If you maintain two grapples, you do not have a standard action left.

Quote:
With Greater Grapple and the Constrict Ability, can a white-haired witch basically do 4 instances of damage? Constrict as swift action when maintaining the grapple, and the damage resulting as part of the two checks for maintaining, and using a standard action to attack the target?

This is less clear to me - the way I read it, you do not technically gain the Constrict quality (which allows you to damage on all successful grapple checks,) rather you gain a similar ability that requires a swift action each time you use it. So, you could do at most 3 instances of damage using Greater Grapple - damage as part of maintaining the grapple (move action,) constrict damage (swift action,) and either a normal attack or another damage as part of maintaining the grapple (standard action.)

Liberty's Edge

DM_Blake wrote:

Armpit hair? Really? As if manga-hair-witch isn't weird enough, you had to with armpit hair?

You asked about a gajillion questions, so I'll try to cover them all:

Can one creature grapple multiple targets? Yes.
Can the White haired witch make more than one grapple with her hair? Yes
For instance, Can the hair on her head grapple one target, and the hair under her armpit grapple another? Yuck. Or you could just use some head hair for one grapple and some other head hair for the other grapple. If you're a Tolkein hobbit, you could probably use foot hair. The game doesn't care where the hair is. Yes, you could even use that hair if you want.
Obviously it would be restricted to the number of attacks she has. Correct.
Can I grab on an AoO? Yes. It says it's a Free action but there is a FAQ saying it works like the monster ability Grab which has been FAQ'd to work off-turn.
So with Combat Reflexes, Dex 18, and BAB +6, could I grapple 6 targets (as long as circumstances allow it)? Yes.
How would these mechanics work? On your turn, you have two attacks. If both hit different targets, you GRAB them (free grapple attempt). During the enemies' turns, they provoke and you attack, hit, and GRAB 4 more times for a total of 6 grappled foes. Simple as that. When it's your next turn, you can pick one of them to maintain the grapple if you want to, but you'll have to release all the others - you can only maintain one grapple as a Standard action.

If so, using Greater Grapple, can a Witch maintain more than one grapple at a time since it only requires a move action and she can make two checks in a round? Yes.
Are both the checks together considered a move action or is each its own separate move action? Each check is its own move action.
In other words, can I make both checks as part of one move action and then have a standard action left? No.

With Greater Grapple and the Constrict Ability, can a white-haired witch basically do 4 instances of damage? There is no synergy with the witch's version of...

So theoretically I could use a move action to maintain the grapple and do damage, then release the grapple as a free action, then attack the target again with my standard action to deal damage, then get a free grab attempt and constrict to do damage again? So 3 instances of damage I could get off in a round?

EDIT: Or 4 instances of damage in a round with BAB +6? Attack one target, grab, constrict, release grapple, attack again, grab, constrict?


thatcheriliff wrote:

So theoretically I could use a move action to maintain the grapple and do damage, then release the grapple as a free action, then attack the target again with my standard action to deal damage, then get a free grab attempt and constrict to do damage again? So 3 instances of damage I could get off in a round?

EDIT: Or 4 instances of damage in a round with BAB +6? Attack one target, grab, constrict, release grapple, attack again, grab, constrict?

Sure, but you don't even have to release.

At BAB 6, you Attack+GRAB+Constrict, then Attack+GRAB but you cannot constrict twice because it's a swift Action and you only get one Swift action per round.

But doing that, you end your turn with two enemies grappled.

At the start of your next turn, you must maintain those grapples or release them - if you don't yet have Grater Grapple you MUST release at least one, but you could try to maintain one grapple, or you could release both and then do your TWO attacks/GRABS/ONE constrict again.

Liberty's Edge

DM_Blake wrote:
thatcheriliff wrote:

So theoretically I could use a move action to maintain the grapple and do damage, then release the grapple as a free action, then attack the target again with my standard action to deal damage, then get a free grab attempt and constrict to do damage again? So 3 instances of damage I could get off in a round?

EDIT: Or 4 instances of damage in a round with BAB +6? Attack one target, grab, constrict, release grapple, attack again, grab, constrict?

Sure, but you don't even have to release.

At BAB 6, you Attack+GRAB+Constrict, then Attack+GRAB but you cannot constrict twice because it's a swift Action and you only get one Swift action per round.

But doing that, you end your turn with two enemies grappled.

At the start of your next turn, you must maintain those grapples or release them - if you don't yet have Grater Grapple you MUST release at least one, but you could try to maintain one grapple, or you could release both and then do your TWO attacks/GRABS/ONE constrict again.

If I wanted to do the 3 instances of damage to one target though I would have to release correct? Also do you have a link to the FAQ you mentioned? Want to make sure I have these rules down for PFS play

EDIT: And since it works like monster grab, i get +4 to the check correct?

Grand Lodge

DM_Blake wrote:

Armpit hair? Really? As if manga-hair-witch isn't weird enough, you had to with armpit hair?

There are worse places that could have gone, trust me.

With grabbing master, each maintain maintains on two foes, so with that and greater grapple, you can maintain on 4 foes per turn.


Meta: the original post has far too many questions to be a legitimate FAQ candidate. Let's find any points of contention first, then if we need to FAQ, do so on one or two clearly-expressed questions.

Quote:
EDIT: Or 4 instances of damage in a round with BAB +6? Attack one target, grab, constrict, release grapple, attack again, grab, constrict?

BAB +6 is irrelevant, it's a natural attack so you cannot get iteratives with it. The only way to attack with it more than once per round would be Haste (or AoOs.)

@Blake, I have a different reading of this:

Quote:
when the white-haired witch’s hair successfully grapples an opponent

I take "successfully grapples" to mean "makes a successful grapple check", rather than "initiates a grapple." So, I think maintaining a grapple would qualify for constrict damage if you use a swift. That's my interpretation, but I could be wrong.


FLite wrote:
With grabbing master, each maintain maintains on two foes, so with that and greater grapple, you can maintain on 4 foes per turn.

Grabbing Master would require multiclassing though (probably to MoMS 2,) as a single-classed witch can't meet the pre-reqs.

Grand Lodge

If you do go that route, Anaconda Coils would let you constrict on every grab or maintain. Sadly, it would only be 1d6 + str. But you could use final embrace to switch the damage back to unarmed attack, and then get final embrace horror to apply shaken to your grapples.

Of course this is getting feet intensive.


@ a Little offtopic
"Can one creature grapple multiple targets? Yes."

how would that work?
Initial grappling should work but what about the rounds after?

CRB wrote:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.

so if i get that right you would Need 1 Standard Action for each creature you are grappling. since you have only (1 Standard Action) thats gonna be impossible and you will have to release the hold.

I know, with greater grapple you could make 2 rolls each round, making 1 as a move Action, but then the Limit would be 2 creatures, to maintain the hold.

how to work around that rule, making it possible to maintain the hold vs multiple Targets?

Sczarni

Nobody said you could.

You'd need Greater Grapple (or some similar ability) to maintain two different grapples.

But before that turn comes around, you can technically share the Grappled condition with multiple creatures.

A Giant Octopus can Grab 8 different foes, but by the time it comes back to its turn it can only maintain one of them.

Grand Lodge

As far as I am aware, the theoretical limit for maintain is 4 creatures, but requires optional rules.

1 standard
+1 move (greater grapple)
=2 x 2 (grabbing master)


FLite wrote:

As far as I am aware, the theoretical limit for maintain is 4 creatures, but requires optional rules.

1 standard
+1 move (greater grapple)
=2 x 2 (grabbing master)

Rapid Grappler (Combat) wrote:

You are a quick hand at grappling.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 9th.

Benefit: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check.

Also, potential RAW issues with Grabbing Master

Quote:
When you are grabbing two opponents

It also never explicitly says you also successfully maintain vs both targets with a single check, only that you "can ... move or damage ... both".

Initiating against more than 3 opponents pretty much requires Grab.

Grand Lodge

Move and Damage are both forms of maintain. What it seems to be saying (to me) is that you cannot use a single check to advance them both to pin.

I missed rapid grappler.

So that would bring it up to 6, unless your GM rules that grabbing master, when you maintain on one, you can damage another, but it doesn't count as maintaining on both.

Liberty's Edge

Would the White-Haired Witch's Constrict ability work with the Strangler Brawler's Strangle ability? How would those mechanics work? For Example: I attack as a standard action and hit, I then get a free grapple attempt and succeed, automatically Constricting...do i get Strangle damage too? How many times can Strangle be capitalized on in a round to get the most damage possible out of it?

Constrict wrote:
At 2nd level, when the white-haired witch’s hair successfully grapples an opponent, it can begin constricting her victim as a swift action, dealing damage equal to that of its attack.
Strangle wrote:
At 1st level, a strangler deals +1d6 sneak attack damage whenever she succeeds at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent. The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability. This damage increases by +1d6 at 2nd, 8th and 15th levels.


Took me a moment to figure out you are asking if you can apply the the SA to the Constrict despite it not being a 'grapple check to damage or pin'.

RAW, I'd say no, based on my statement above. On top of that, Constrict is even its own action.

RAI, I'd say no. Even UMR Constrict seems to be disqualified. Also, I don't think you'd normally apply SA of any kind to either version of Constrict, as there's not an attack roll.

On the other hand Strangle(Ex) applies to every grapple check where you choose the "damage" or "pin" option. This is up to 3 times per round if you have both Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler.
Strangle will not apply to a roll that initiates a grapple.

Also WHW Constrict is a swift action. (this was errata, but even what you quoted says swift)

Liberty's Edge

Archaeik wrote:

Took me a moment to figure out you are asking if you can apply the the SA to the Constrict despite it not being a 'grapple check to damage or pin'.

RAW, I'd say no, based on my statement above. On top of that, Constrict is even its own action.

RAI, I'd say no. Even UMR Constrict seems to be disqualified. Also, I don't think you'd normally apply SA of any kind to either version of Constrict, as there's not an attack roll.

On the other hand Strangle(Ex) applies to every grapple check where you choose the "damage" or "pin" option. This is up to 3 times per round if you have both Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler.
Strangle will not apply to a roll that initiates a grapple.

Also WHW Constrict is a swift action. (this was errata, but even what you quoted says swift)

How would you get 3 times per round to damage or pin? Even though you can make "3 grapple checks", aren't you still limited to 2 checks total per round to "damage, move, or pin" with Greater Grapple? Rapid Grappler doesn't write that it increases this limit/round.

Greater Grapple wrote:
You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
Rapid Grappler wrote:
Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check.

Grand Lodge

Maintain once as a standard
Greater grapple to maintain once as a move
Rapid grapple to maintain once as a swift.

There is no rule saying you can only maintain once per round. It is just usually limited by only having one standard.

Read the rest of the sentence you are bolding. All it is saying is that even though you get to make two grapple checks, you only have to succeed at one to continue the grapple.

Without the rest of that sentance, someone could argue that if you made the first successfully, but then failed the second, you had "failed to maintain the grapple" and they were now free.


The issue is whether or not "make two grapple checks each round" is a permissive statement or a reminder.

Given that there is no expressed restriction on the number of grapple checks(of any kind) you can make in a round as a general rule, it is unlikely that it is intended as a strictly permissive statement.

Further, while there is ambiguity as to whether Rapid Grappler's check is intended to be "in addition to any others", I think it is.
The common interpretation is that it grants a third opportunity.

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