Does chokehold allow you to make the chokehold check in the same round as a successful grapple check?


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Question in title.

the wording of chokehold:

Quote:
While you have an opponent up to one size category larger than you grappled, you can attempt a grapple combat maneuver with a –5 penalty on the check. If you succeed, you have pinned your opponent and hold the opponent in a chokehold. When you maintain the grapple, you also maintain the chokehold. A creature in a chokehold cannot breathe or speak, and thus cannot cast spells that have a verbal component. An opponent you have in a chokehold has to hold his breath or begin suffocating. Any creature that does not breathe, is immune to bleed damage, or is immune to critical hits is immune to the effects of your chokehold. When the grapple is ended, so is the chokehold.

Note that the bolded part doesn't state any action cost of making this grapple combat manuever check.

Now, I believe that this is intended to cost a standard action as would be normal for pinning, especially since this feat would instantly be more powerful than greater grapple. However, the wording of it is giving me a bit of pause.

What do you guys think?


You make a "grapple combat maneuver". Period. You get a penalty on that maneuver check. Period.

All grapple maneuvers require a standard action per RAW.

There are some feats or class abilities that can turn grapple checks into move actions - if you can do that, then you might be able to use two actions in the same round, one move action to grapple, one standard action for the chokehold.


I only know of a few select abilities that allow you to initiate grapple with less than a standard action (GG only alters maintain actions).

Given that a condition of executing this feat is that it must be used against a target you have grappled, it is [practically] a de facto maintain roll.

Since it's been stated that the blog will clarify that you aren't allowed to maintain the same round you establish, it is pretty difficult to accomplish this in a single round RAI.

To address the concern more directly:
The feat indicates "while" at the beginning. This means "for the duration", not "when you establish". The "attempt" language indicates the rules that you should reference, including feats that modify it.

Essentially, Chokehold adds its own Grapple:maintain option that functions as specified.


The gray area here is that it doesn't specify what kind of action. I find it easy to argue that you use the same type of action that you normally would use to make a grapple combat maneuver, but I can't think of any other example where it doesn't specify the type of action for something else and where it's implied that you use the same type of action as you would normally.


It does specify that it is a "grapple combat maneuver".

The reason it is not more specific is because it is simpler to make the player reference the entire set of rules he uses for Grapple rather than duplicate a whole bunch of language.

If it allowed you to instantly perform this check, it would likely say "another grapple combat maneuver" and then specify the action type.

I really don't find it ambiguous at all.


Greater Grapple

This allows you to make 2 checks in a round. Chokehold requires that you first have made a grapple. Then you have another grapple maneuver check at -5 to see if you can get them in a chokehold. It's the same 2 steps as pinning them, only it has different effects.


It says "you can attempt a grapple combat maneuver" which means you can spend your standard action (or move, if you have greater grapple that allow you to use Grapple Combat Maneuver to maintain grapple as move action) to make such maneuver.

If you look at Grab monster rule it worded differently -

Quote:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action

It says "attempts to start a grapple".

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