Verifying for intent: dead character with cohorts.


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


This also represents an apparent contradiction in rulebook instructions, so here goes.

WotR Rulebook p14, on dying:
"The other characters may use the dead character's cards when they rebuild their decks after the scenario; any cards they don't keep are then banished."

p17, on cleanup after a scenario:
"Once you've played a scenario, whether you've won or lost, rebuild your character deck (...) Put all other cards in the box."

p18, Between Games:
"If you have cards left over after rebuilding all of the surviving characters' decks, put them back in the box."

-----

So if Balazar dies and isn't raised by scenario end, is Padrig "banished" or returned to the box?

(My guess: returned to the box.)

Sovereign Court

17/18 is the standard rules. 14 gives an exception to those rules when a certain circumstance occurs (character death). It's a little confusing because the exception to the rule is explained before the rule it's an exception to. Padrig is banished.


I have... sorta mixed feelings about that.

The bad: cohorts don't actually get banished. When they would get banished, they're removed from the game (and due to the way they're added to decks, "level the character back up and rejoin the group" does not work; the entire party would have to restart the AP to get "banished" cohorts back.)

The "good": there's a crazy tactic that can be simplified to "at the start of Adventure 3, you may remove all Basic boons from the game; at the start of Adventure 5, you may remove all Elite boons from the game."

Quite simply, create lemming characters that join a party, carry Basic / Elite boons up to where they can be removed instead of banished, then suicide the lemmings. Since (unlike abandoned loot) these cards are actually banished, they may be removed from the game.

As a matter of obvious time-saving, one could simply skip the lemming-cycling and simply remove unwanted boons.

Sovereign Court

Think about it though, if they got put back into the box due to your bolded parts of 17/18, what would be the point of adding in that last sentence in your page 14 paragraph?

Sure you could run some characters through keeping basics and elites to get them out, but that's far more work than it's worth for the end result, so the ability to do that really isn't a concern

Yes, cohorts make the death rule interesting. The things is though, that rule has been around since before cohorts existed, and even now that rule would only ever apply to what? 4 or 5 cohorts with character owners (and even then, only 1 is going to be with a dead character), plus maybe one or two they might have depending on the scenario they're in, it's such a miniscule number that it probably isn't something to base rules interpretations on.

As for the whole party having to restart, that's completely up to you and your party's interpretation of the rules. Personally I'd say your new Balazar comes with a new Padrig, but if you want to say otherwise neither is really wrong, it's a matter of table variation.


I'd agree. I don't think the intention is that you basically can't play that character with the cohort again.


Andrew L Klein wrote:

Think about it though, if they got put back into the box due to your bolded parts of 17/18, what would be the point of adding in that last sentence in your page 14 paragraph?

Sure you could run some characters through keeping basics and elites to get them out, but that's far more work than it's worth for the end result, so the ability to do that really isn't a concern

You add the suicide characters to the group using the rule that lets you add them to an advanced group, so there's no need to run them up. During the suicide "scenario," they're doing nothing but resetting their hand; any real character "overseers" are doing nothing but passing their turn. It's 100% reliable, so there isn't a reason to formally play it out during a real table session. No work for the end result.

That can't be intended, but saying that a dead character's untaken cards are banished (rather than put back in the box) appears to allow it.

It also doesn't make sense to say "if a player character dies with a shortsword in inventory, you may destroy that shortsword, but only if your party is 6th level or higher. However, if a player character survives with the shortsword in inventory, it may not be destroyed."

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Sandslice wrote:
The "good": there's a crazy tactic that can be simplified to "at the start of Adventure 3, you may remove all Basic boons from the game; at the start of Adventure 5, you may remove all Elite boons from the game."

That rule is an option in the PFSACG Guide to Org Play, not the regular rulebook.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't think this scenario merits an official resolution, but my answer is that if you start up a new Balazar, bring Padrig back. But if you don't, leave Padrig out.

(You might think that last sentence isn't terribly meaningful, mechanically speaking, since there's no apparent way to use Padrig *without* Balazar... but I'm nevertheless saying it.)


Vic Wertz wrote:
Sandslice wrote:
The "good": there's a crazy tactic that can be simplified to "at the start of Adventure 3, you may remove all Basic boons from the game; at the start of Adventure 5, you may remove all Elite boons from the game."
That rule is an option in the PFSACG Guide to Org Play, not the regular rulebook.

And it makes sense in OP, as it's a fair way to proceed (also, OP has a one regular upgrade per scenario rule anyway.) In the regular rulebook, though, what I was hinting at is this:

-If dead characters' cards are banished, then some cards might qualify for removal from the game. It'd be possible to swap characters, or build new characters to add to the group, and suicide those new characters to remove Basic / Elite cards from the game.
As the process is 100% reliable, simply removing the boons when it's possible is only a shortcut.

(Come to think of it, there's another abuse using the same method, that would let characters rebuild their decks using their choice of boons from the box up to AD-2. Load up a lemming with those cards, then suicide it to give the party those cards for deck-rebuilding.)

But that's a big if; and I suppose the real question, then, is this:

If you have dead characters at the end of a scenario, and the survivors are done rebuilding decks, do you use banish or return to the box to clean up the dead characters' cards?

Sovereign Court

I'll ask it again, what purpose would the sentence serve about banishing dead character's remaining cards (after the other characters rebuild with them if they wish) unless it was an exception to the usual "return to box" rule? You quoted that in your last post but didn't seem to answer it.


For all I know, it might not have a purpose at all; it's old language (found verbatim in the other rulebooks,) and the distinction didn't matter much. I do know it makes no sense to say that the same card can be RFG'd if:

-You decline or fail its roll to acquire;
-You close the location which banishes it;
-You acquire it and are dead at scenario end, and the party doesn't keep it;

But not:

-If the scenario ends with it in a temp-closed or open location;
-You acquire it, survive, and the party doesn't keep it.

That's why I'm asking to be sure.


Are you asking if they meant to change that after S&S? Or are you asking if they ever meant for it to be that way?

Here are some relevant threads:
Thread 1
Thread 2

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Sandslice wrote:
If you have dead characters at the end of a scenario, and the survivors are done rebuilding decks, do you use banish or return to the box to clean up the dead characters' cards?

It's very clear in the rules: "The other characters may use the dead character's cards when they rebuild their decks after the scenario; any cards they don't keep are then banished."

Adventure Card Game Designer

3 people marked this as a favorite.

You banish them. Also, don't play the game the dumb way. Your characters wouldn't commit suicide for that stupid reason, so don't commit suicide for them. (Don't make me pull out Mike's Rule of Organized Play.)

If you die as Balazar and are not raised before the end of the game, Padrig is banished for that Balazar. If you start over, "new Balazar" starts as "original Balazar." Thus, he has Padrig.


Mike Selinker wrote:

You banish them. Also, don't play the game the dumb way. Your characters wouldn't commit suicide for that stupid reason, so don't commit suicide for them. (Don't make me pull out Mike's Rule of Organized Play.)

If you die and are forced to start Balazar over, Padrig is banished for that Balazar. If you start over, "new Balazar" starts as "original Balazar." Thus, he has Padrig.

First off, thanks for clarifying on both points, the banishing and with "new instance of owner = new instance of cohort."

The suicide thing is not something I'd ever do myself; just a hypothetical concern based on the game mechanics.

Adventure Card Game Designer

One other thing: The Basic/Elite culling rule happens for two types of cards, banes and boons. Padrig is neither of those.


Mike Selinker wrote:

You banish them. Also, don't play the game the dumb way. Your characters wouldn't commit suicide for that stupid reason, so don't commit suicide for them. (Don't make me pull out Mike's Rule of Organized Play.)

If you die as Balazar and are not raised before the end of the game, Padrig is banished for that Balazar. If you start over, "new Balazar" starts as "original Balazar." Thus, he has Padrig.

Hi Mike. I would IMHO in the spirit of "don't play the game the dumb way" add that - for thematic reasons and to make a good story/memory of your game - you should refrain when a character id dead to bring back the same character in the same game.

There are 50 or so characters published in that game now I guess, not counting re-vamped ones... You should have no difficulty finding another one to end the game with.


Correct me if I'm wrong, being banished has nothing to do with removed from the game, banish states that the card is placed back in the box. So a Banished Cohort that has a dead owner, returns to the box it can be available for play with a new Owner who also is available since it returned to the box.


KazMx wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, being banished has nothing to do with removed from the game, banish states that the card is placed back in the box. So a Banished Cohort that has a dead owner, returns to the box it can be available for play with a new Owner who also is available since it returned to the box.

It's a general rule for the cohort card type: if a cohort would be banished, it is removed from the game instead.

You would be right in most circumstances though. :)

Sovereign Court

Also, the adventure path card has rules for when you actually do remove banished cards from the game (even non cohorts), every adventure path currently released has this rule.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

The rules on the AP card care only about cards with the Basic and Elite traits, and no Wrath cohort has either.


Vic Wertz wrote:
The rules on the AP card care only about cards with the Basic and Elite traits, and no Wrath cohort has either.

But some cohorts have owners, and owners get to treat their cards as having the Basic trait.

Sovereign Court

Cohorts are removed from the game regardless of traits though, so that rule is irrelevant to cohorts Nefrubyr

Grand Lodge

Andrew, I think there are two different circumstances that are being addressed.

If a character dies, their cohort is banished to the box and can be used again.

If a character banishes their cohort, then the cohort is banished from the game (meaning that run of the Adventure Path). That's according the the last paragraph about cohorts in the rulebook.

Adventure Card Game Designer

Nefrubyr wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
The rules on the AP card care only about cards with the Basic and Elite traits, and no Wrath cohort has either.
But some cohorts have owners, and owners get to treat their cards as having the Basic trait.

But they don't get to treat their cohorts as boons ever.

And even if you could banish them, it's an option, not a requirement (outside organized play, anyway). You wanna banish your free cohort?


I get all that, I just wanted to point out the hole in Vic's case — a life of maths does that to a person. Hopefully we've all learned that when skimming cards for the Basic and Elite traits, you now have to watch out for owners too.


I am still looking up cohorts, to see if they are a "16th" card at the beginning of a hand, but remember that sometimes suicide is the only answer for some people. I've had to have Seoni commit a heroic suicide (I think that is Japanese harakiri, I might be wrong) quite a few times if a Scenario was too difficult. I usually just say what my character is atheist and wouldn't care if she lived or died.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you're having your characters commit suicide, you're doing it wrong. If things go south, just run out the blessings deck and try again, no need to kill off your characters. I can only think of a few scenarios that lack a blessings deck which makes that a non-option.

Also was there some reason you needed to revive this thread?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
skizzerz wrote:
If you're having your characters commit suicide, you're doing it wrong. If things go south, just run out the blessings deck and try again, no need to kill off your characters. I can only think of a few scenarios that lack a blessings deck which makes that a non-option.

Usually towards the end of or the last scenario of an AP that can happen.

Quote:
Also was there some reason you needed to revive this thread?

I think he cast Revivify on every cohort thread he could find in the various PACG sections.


I was trying to find out anything I could about cohorts. I had only read two of the Rulebooks in detail, and apparently not the one I ought. I was playing Class Deck Witch, which was new for me, and was really confused on why Feiya didn't have "Arcane" or "Divine" as a trait. Since I was playing Rise of the Runelords, I didn't think to look at another base set's rulebook. I thought that only applied to organized PACG play, not traditional play.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Card Game / Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion / Verifying for intent: dead character with cohorts. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion