| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Does difficult terrain effect you if you are not on the ground? For example, say your rogue attempted to jump over a square with difficult terrain in it, or if your unchained monk were performing a flying kick over the difficult terrain.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Case by case basis, depending on what made the ground difficult terrain in the first place.
Jungle, complete with vines, trees, undergrowth you have to hack away with a machete? it would definitely affect you
an barbarian breaking the ground so its uneven? I doubt it'd effect you
Something your DM will have to adjudicate, since it doesnt come up often enough for there to be an actual rule about it.
The difficult terrain rules are predicated on normal land-based movement. It comes down to table variance...or Dragon Style.
I agree with Weables on that one. Definitely a case by case situation. That being said, I would allow creative attempts to avoid difficult terrain as proposed by the OP.
Thanks for the input. Please also FAQ the OP if you're curious to find out the way it was intended. (I'm personally kinda' banking on Weables' interpretation.)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Does a pit affect (with an "a") you if you jump over it?
Do caltrops affect you if you jump over them?
Does a knee-high pile of rubble affect you if you jump over it?
Etc.?
No, no, no. It's only "difficult terrain" if you have to deal with it. If you can go around it, you are not dealing with it. If there is a room full of webs creating difficult terrain almost everywhere, but there is a path around/through the webs, and you stay on that path and out of the difficult terrain, then you went around it. If there is a field with a small thicket of dense trees and bushes, but you walk around that small thicket, then you went around it. In these cases, clearly, going AROUND the difficult terrain means you do not interact with it all and it does not affect you.
In 3 dimensions, going "around" includes going "over" - that's just one more dimension of going around. A dragon flying hundreds of feet above a dense jungle does not have to fly at half speed just because the ground far below him is difficult terrain. He is going around the difficult terrain (in the 3rd dimension).
Likewise, jumping over a pit does not mean the pit impedes your movement. Nor doe sjumping over caltrops or a small pile of rubble or any other difficult terrain.
This does not need a FAQ.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sometimes you really don't need a FAQ, you just need a GM to make a decision based on the circumstances.
Does a pit affect (with an "a") you if you jump over it?
Do caltrops affect you if you jump over them?
Does a knee-high pile of rubble affect you if you jump over it?
Etc.?No, no, no. It's only "difficult terrain" if you have to deal with it. If you can go around it, you are not dealing with it. If there is a room full of webs creating difficult terrain almost everywhere, but there is a path around/through the webs, and you stay on that path and out of the difficult terrain, then you went around it. If there is a field with a small thicket of dense trees and bushes, but you walk around that small thicket, then you went around it. In these cases, clearly, going AROUND the difficult terrain means you do not interact with it all and it does not affect you.
In 3 dimensions, going "around" includes going "over" - that's just one more dimension of going around. A dragon flying hundreds of feet above a dense jungle does not have to fly at half speed just because the ground far below him is difficult terrain. He is going around the difficult terrain (in the 3rd dimension).
Likewise, jumping over a pit does not mean the pit impedes your movement. Nor doe sjumping over caltrops or a small pile of rubble or any other difficult terrain.
This does not need a FAQ.
I agree with your premise, though your dragon example is completely flawed. As its a 3d game, you're dealing with squares that you occupy. even if paizo ruled that you cant avoid difficult terrain by going around, it would only be people who ended up occupying that 5 foot cube that are impacted. Ironically enough, you forgot the Z axis, as the dragon wouldnt be occupying the 5 foot cube that is difficult terrain
I agree with your premise, though your dragon example is completely flawed. As its a 3d game, you're dealing with squares that you occupy. even if paizo ruled that you cant avoid difficult terrain by going around, it would only be people who ended up occupying that 5 foot cube that are impacted. Ironically enough, you forgot the Z axis, as the dragon wouldnt be occupying the 5 foot cube that is difficult terrain
I forgot it?
Didn't we both say that the dragon is not affected by the jungle?
Definitely depends on the terrain, but more often than not, probably not. :)
I agree that is seems more like a GM call than an FAQ item.
If it can't affect you then it can't effect you. Does anyone have an example of something that violates this?
PS: If you don't have to deal with it then it can't affect you. I don't think flyers are slowed down by pits as an example.
I agree with your premise, though your dragon example is completely flawed. As its a 3d game, you're dealing with squares that you occupy. even if paizo ruled that you cant avoid difficult terrain by going around, it would only be people who ended up occupying that 5 foot cube that are impacted. Ironically enough, you forgot the Z axis, as the dragon wouldnt be occupying the 5 foot cube that is difficult terrainI forgot it?
Didn't we both say that the dragon is not affected by the jungle?
I think what he is saying is that the dragon isn't moving through a square with difficult terrain. However the monk in the opening example is still moving through the 5x5x5 area which has the terrain thus the dragon isn't going to be affected because he isn't moving thought it but the monk technically still is.
I think what he is saying is that the dragon isn't moving through a square with difficult terrain. However the monk in the opening example is still moving through the 5x5x5 area which has the terrain thus the dragon isn't going to be affected because he isn't moving thought it but the monk technically still is.
A 5x5x5 "area"? My geometry teacher would have a field day with this.
A "square" is a two-dimensional area, and the dragon is definitely in that "square," despite being hundreds of feet up. There's no such thing as a "cube" in the pathfinder movement rules.
However, if you don't need to deal with it, it doesn't affect you. Sleet storm, for example, leaves the ground icy, but you don't need to be five feet above the ice not to slip. Similarly, the idea that if you're six feet above caltrops you're safe, but if you're only six inches above them, they hamper you is silly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
However, if you don't need to deal with it, it doesn't affect you. Sleet storm, for example, leaves the ground icy, but you don't need to be five feet above the ice not to slip. Similarly, the idea that if you're six feet above caltrops you're safe, but if you're only six inches above them, they hamper you is silly.
Ah, the rules forum. For those times when simple common sense won't do :)
I brought it up in part because several people in the unchained monk thread seemed to be arguing that a flying kick would be affected by difficult terrain.
Also, if one can simply jump over difficult terrain, and there is no rule limiting how many times you can jump during your movement, I can see how this could be easily abused to essentially ignore difficult terrain. Therefore, I think getting some official input, even if not a FAQ, could be useful.
|
Keep in mind there is a jump check involved, only 5 with a running start, but hopping around from square to square is going to be a dc 10, which with bad rolls could put you prone.
Also a long jump gives you a height of 1/4 the distance traveled, so adjudication on the height of the terrain could also come in to play.
All you need is to be able to make a standing long jump of 5 feet. What is that, DC 10? Insofar as I can tell, there is no chance of falling prone with a long jump, and there is nothing keeping you from doing this multiple times as part of the same action used to move.
It doesn't even slow you down.
All you need is to be able to make a standing long jump of 5 feet. What is that, DC 10? Insofar as I can tell, there is no chance of falling prone with a long jump, and there is nothing keeping you from doing this multiple times as part of the same action used to move.
There's also nothing suggesting that you can do it multiple times. The only rule is that "Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category."
My rule is that a jump, singular, is a non-standard mode of movement. So if you can successfully make a 15 foot standing broad jump, you move 15 feet.
So...children play very slow hopscotch games in your campaign, Orfamay?
|
I think the question isn't terribly clear since it revolves around jumping and multiple jumps over difficult terrain - obviously not flying over it, and not cases like being 6 inches above caltrops (I hope).
I assume a character can take multiple jumps over difficult terrain but you still run into issues like having to be careful where you land, or not being able to take 5 foot steps.
A reasonable GM would rule that if you clear the area in a single jump, and the hazard is tiny and on the ground, you've cleared the difficult terrain at normal speed.
But "difficult terrain" in general is a very vague definition, and there's unlikely to be an FAQ to cover several cases.
I think what he is saying is that the dragon isn't moving through a square with difficult terrain. However the monk in the opening example is still moving through the 5x5x5 area which has the terrain thus the dragon isn't going to be affected because he isn't moving thought it but the monk technically still is.I agree with your premise, though your dragon example is completely flawed. As its a 3d game, you're dealing with squares that you occupy. even if paizo ruled that you cant avoid difficult terrain by going around, it would only be people who ended up occupying that 5 foot cube that are impacted. Ironically enough, you forgot the Z axis, as the dragon wouldnt be occupying the 5 foot cube that is difficult terrainI forgot it?
Didn't we both say that the dragon is not affected by the jungle?
This is what I meant. thanks for clarifying. The dragon example wasnt flawed due to you being wrong, it just wasnt a good comparison to someone who still has to go through that cube of space.
|
|
All you need is to be able to make a standing long jump of 5 feet. What is that, DC 10? Insofar as I can tell, there is no chance of falling prone with a long jump, and there is nothing keeping you from doing this multiple times as part of the same action used to move.
It doesn't even slow you down.
From CRB
"For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land."
As I said, poor rolls can cause problems.
if one can simply jump over difficult terrain, and there is no rule limiting how many times you can jump during your movement, I can see how this could be easily abused to essentially ignore difficult terrain. Therefore, I think getting some official input, even if not a FAQ, could be useful.
It might not be "simply". If you're on the ground in a dense jungle, jumping over difficult terrain is probably impossible. If you're on the ground in a cave full of spiderwebs (floor to ceiling), jumping over difficult terrain is probably impossible. If you're in a hallway strewn with caltrops, jumping over difficult terrain is probably impossible.
Your plan assumes that there is a good place for you to land. And it might be much farther than 5' feet away. And there might be intervening obstacles like tree limbs, webs, vines, stalactites, or any number of other obstacles not on the ground preventing it.
For other cases, where it's a 5' jump with only low-lying difficult terrain on the ground you're absolutely right - "simply" jump right over it.
I've often had monsters jump over Grease spells on the floor to avoid slipping.
All you need is to be able to make a standing long jump of 5 feet. What is that, DC 10? Insofar as I can tell, there is no chance of falling prone with a long jump, and there is nothing keeping you from doing this multiple times as part of the same action used to move.
It doesn't even slow you down.
You fall prone if you fail any long jump, standing or running.
Hopscotching from square to square requires multiple safe squares in which you can land. All but the first must be a standing jump (unless you can run 10' between each jump). If you can manage all of this and still be useful in combat, go for it. If it's not combat, I don't see the problem. Just walk through the difficult terrain (unless it's dangerous, like lava, in which case this sounds like a cool dungeon hazard - just don't fail and end up faceplanting prone into the lava).
|
|
RD, if you jump 15 feet and then land in difficult terrain, next time you jump it costs you twice as much distance (as per difficult terrain). I expect difficult terrain would impede jumping just like it would walking or running.
So the next 15 foot jump only nets you a five foot displacement.
However, if you're hopping from one clear space to another, then I see no problem. The issue is a GM call based on how high the difficult terrain is really. I don't see the need for a FAQ here.
Hopscotching from square to square requires multiple safe squares in which you can land. All but the first must be a standing jump (unless you can run 10' between each jump). If you can manage all of this and still be useful in combat, go for it.
Though it seems I was mistaken about the consequences of failing the check, I see nothing that states that a "safe" square is required. Insofar as I can tell, at worst, difficult terrain will effect the jump DC for moving into the next square (since the quality of footing does matter, and is accounted for in the rules).
RD, if you jump 15 feet and then land in difficult terrain, next time you jump it costs you twice as much distance (as per difficult terrain). I expect difficult terrain would impede jumping just like it would walking or running.
Difficult terrain applies to land speed, not necessarily jumping, or other modes of movement (if I'm mistaken, please do correct me). Also, the movement costs of difficult terrain are applied when entering such squares, not when leaving them.
Difficult terrain applies to land speed
I haven't seen this statement anywhere when searching the movement section of the PRD for difficult terrain. Unless I'm missing something here, from a conceptual standpoint, there could certainly be areas that would be difficult for other forms of movement (flying through a thick canopy, swimming through an area with currents, or a reef with deadly anemone, etc). In the CRB, the definition simply seems to be to determine whether that person's movement would be hampered in the given situation.
Though it seems I was mistaken about the consequences of failing the check, I see nothing that states that a "safe" square is required. Insofar as I can tell, at worst, difficult terrain will effect the jump DC for moving into the next square (since the quality of footing does matter, and is accounted for in the rules).
I guess that depends on what the difficult terrain is.
The ground is covered with caltrops or punji sticks? You'll take damage and impede future movement.
A stone floor covered with marbles? Just about guaranteed to fall prone. (not sure what the RAW is)
Stairs? There probably should be at least some kind of DEX check to land correctly and not fall.
Rubble-strewn stone floor? Maybe something like the caltrops, or maybe just a DEX check to not fall.
Lava? Don't even want to think about landing there.
Other forms of difficult terrain? I guess each one is up to the GM.
Difficult terrain applies to land speedI haven't seen this statement anywhere when searching the movement section of the PRD for difficult terrain. Unless I'm missing something here, from a conceptual standpoint, there could certainly be areas that would be difficult for other forms of movement (flying through a thick canopy, swimming through an area with currents, or a reef with deadly anemone, etc). In the CRB, the definition simply seems to be to determine whether that person's movement would be hampered in the given situation.
Perhaps, but I see all kinds of things that slow movement down that aren't classified as difficult terrain at all (which, by the way, really bugs me because it prevents a myriad of abilities from working when they should).
I guess that depends on what the difficult terrain is.
The ground is covered with caltrops or punji sticks? You'll take damage and impede future movement.
A stone floor covered with marbles? Just about guaranteed to fall prone. (not sure what the RAW is)
Stairs? There probably should be at least some kind of DEX check to land correctly and not fall.
Rubble-strewn stone floor? Maybe something like the caltrops, or maybe just a DEX check to not fall.
Lava? Don't even want to think about landing there.Other forms of difficult terrain? I guess each one is up to the GM.
For some of those (such as marbles and caltrops) you are correct, however on others (pretty much everything else) you are just making up new rules.
That's great for home games, but doesn't have much place in the rules forum or in PFS.
So...children play very slow hopscotch games in your campaign, Orfamay?
They do when the squares are five or more feet wide.
Can an unchained monk make a flying kick in difficult terrain? Yes, if they make the jump check sufficient to clear the obstacle(s) causing the difficult terrain. As for multiple jumps, doesn't it say in the section for Acrobatics that you can move as far as you'd like jumping so long as you don't exceed your land-based movement? So one 30' standing long jump or 6 5' standing long jumps, it's your call.
Frankly this is why everyone who feels this action might come up should play a grippli. Take the 2 alternate racial traits Jumper and Glider. Now you have a guy with a 20' Climb speed that can use one Move action to get 10' up (jump) and another 10' up on the wall, then use their next Move action to jump 40' (30' with their Jump check and gliding another 10').
For some of those (such as marbles and caltrops) you are correct, however on others (pretty much everything else) you are just making up new rules.I guess that depends on what the difficult terrain is.
The ground is covered with caltrops or punji sticks? You'll take damage and impede future movement.
A stone floor covered with marbles? Just about guaranteed to fall prone. (not sure what the RAW is)
Stairs? There probably should be at least some kind of DEX check to land correctly and not fall.
Rubble-strewn stone floor? Maybe something like the caltrops, or maybe just a DEX check to not fall.
Lava? Don't even want to think about landing there.Other forms of difficult terrain? I guess each one is up to the GM.
Sure, I even said I was guessing at a few of these things. What's your point?
MY POINT was that your blanket statement that said "nothing requires a safe square" regarding jumping around the battlefield was not necessarily valid. Clearly, some things DO require a safe square if you want your jumping around to have no consequences, and others might at the GM's discretion.
That's great for home games, but doesn't have much place in the rules forum or in PFS.
Oh really?
So the rules forum is inappropriate for comments like "If you make a long jump onto a staircase, your GM might say that the difficult terrain requires a DEX check to remain standing"?
How about the RAW that says "Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance."?
Or this RAW: "First, you can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling."
So you're saying that EVERY PFS GM will ignore this stuff and let your character hop around like a frog on uneven ground without EVER invoking these rules, right out of the SRD? Are you sure?
Because, it looks to me like there really are RULES that can be quoted in this rules forum. So maybe these rules do have a place here after all.
Difficult terrain applies to land speedI haven't seen this statement anywhere when searching the movement section of the PRD for difficult terrain. Unless I'm missing something here, from a conceptual standpoint, there could certainly be areas that would be difficult for other forms of movement (flying through a thick canopy, swimming through an area with currents, or a reef with deadly anemone, etc). In the CRB, the definition simply seems to be to determine whether that person's movement would be hampered in the given situation.Perhaps, but I see all kinds of things that slow movement down that aren't classified as difficult terrain at all (which, by the way, really bugs me because it prevents a myriad of abilities from working when they should).
By the rules, difficult terrain, visibility, and obstacles all create hampered movement, which gives the penalties we all know and love:
Hampered Movement
Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table: Hampered Movement for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling.
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it's not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can't take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)
You can't run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement.
So in those cases you mentioned, they're probably considered an "obstacle." You're right that it's fair to say that the canopy for fliers or reef of anemone I mentioned could easily be considered obstacles.
So...children play very slow hopscotch games in your campaign, Orfamay?They do when the squares are five or more feet wide.
But what about your house rule that you can only jump once per move action? Would that not mean that the kids could only hop twice every six seconds regardless of how big their play squares are?