Gestalt Untyped Bonus Stacking Question


Advice


thinking of combinations for a new gestalt game i am going to be joining (level 1)

Was looking at Rondelero/Buckler Duelist fighter archetype, and pairing that with Swashbuckler using Slashing Grace.

so my question is at level 5 fighter gets Strong Swing which is an untyped +1 to attack and damage when wielding a falcata, and buckler

swashbuckler weapon training gives a +1 untyped bonus to attack and damage when using a swashbuckler available weapon which would now include falcata because of slashing grace

so in this situation because they are different abilities and different untyped bonuses would they stack?

Shadow Lodge

Yes. Gestalt rules don't allow you to stack the same class feature but Strong Swing is not Weapon Training, even if they function essentially identically.

The relevant FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?

It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.

Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.

Strong Swing, like Expert Archer, doesn't actually refer to weapon training so it doesn't count as that ability, even though it functions exactly the same way. This is also not too overpowered because if you attack with both weapons you can't use the swashbuckler's precise strike - and you can't apply swashbuckler's finesse with the buckler. There are a lot of stronger options for stacking to-hit and damage bonuses (example: urban barbarian).

EDIT: You should double-check with your GM, though, since he/she may disagree with the FAQ and think that the function rather than the wording is most relevant.


well the neat little trick with Strong Swing is you can switch out attacks between falcata and buckler so you never actually have to attack with the buckler and just get extra attacks from TWF only attacking with the falcata


That may depend on the interpretation of Precise Strike.

There are those that believe "other hand" refers to your physical hand, and those that believe it refers to your off-hand.

In the latter instance, picking up off-hand attacks may mean the GM says you lose Precise Strike.

It's something to talk to the GM about before you try it.


Are we talking 3.x gestalt or does PF now have rules for it?


Talonhawke wrote:
Are we talking 3.x gestalt or does PF now have rules for it?

The 3.5 rules are incredibly easy to translate to PF, and that's something that's done rather frequently.


kestral287 wrote:

That may depend on the interpretation of Precise Strike.

There are those that believe "other hand" refers to your physical hand, and those that believe it refers to your off-hand.

In the latter instance, picking up off-hand attacks may mean the GM says you lose Precise Strike.

It's something to talk to the GM about before you try it.

even if you dont get the extra attacks from using twf/ever shield bash with the buckler you are still wielding it to get the bonus to attack and damage which is all im really worried about i guess that would semi defeat the point of the combination but hey worse things have happened

Shadow Lodge

Koshimo wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

That may depend on the interpretation of Precise Strike.

There are those that believe "other hand" refers to your physical hand, and those that believe it refers to your off-hand.

In the latter instance, picking up off-hand attacks may mean the GM says you lose Precise Strike.

It's something to talk to the GM about before you try it.

even if you dont get the extra attacks from using twf/ever shield bash with the buckler you are still wielding it to get the bonus to attack and damage which is all im really worried about i guess that would semi defeat the point of the combination but hey worse things have happened

It's possible that a GM would rule that you have to make an attack with the buckler in order to be considered wielding it, but that making an attack with a buckler in your other physical hand would prevent Precise Strike even if you're not gaining extra attacks with it.

Also...

Koshimo wrote:
well the neat little trick with Strong Swing is you can switch out attacks between falcata and buckler so you never actually have to attack with the buckler and just get extra attacks from TWF only attacking with the falcata.

Strong Swing doesn't give you extra attacks when you alternate between falcata and buckler.

Strong Swing wrote:
At 5th level, a buckler duelist gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. With a full-attack action, a buckler duelist may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack. This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.

I don't believe it lets you use an off-hand attack granted by TWF with your falcata, either - it would have to say so specifically. As is it's more like the ability simply rewords this FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?

Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.

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