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In my lodge we have a new player that, while very enthusiastic, has little means for purchasing books. Our local public library has many books, and this player is asking questions about what, if anything, she can use from these resources in society play.
I have heard that devs have made statements regarding this subject exactly, but 'library' is a commonly used word in our hobby, and I'm having a bit if bother refining my search for such a statement. All help finding it appreciated.
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If I remember correctly, which I may not, photocopies of pages are valid if they have the watermark...
The watermark is on the PDF version, not the print version, and printouts from a watermarked PDF are valid, if the watermark is yours or a member of your households.
Borrowed books from a library are probably a no-go, IIRC, the same as photocopied pages from a hardcopy book.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Well, since you can loan other people your book, and since for a book all you need is physical presence (not proof of ownership) a checked out book from the library is probably fine, but having it checked out long enough for a character arc may be hard. (And may not be fair to other library patrons.)
One solution would be for him to start out in a core game if your area has one, as that drastically restricts the books needed (or allowed)
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Another solution is to get him involved in GMing (which doesn't need books, as long as someone can buy him the scenarios) Maybe if he is GMing a lot the table can even chip in to buy him gift cards to the local store? (I have done this in past for GMs)
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Pretty sure the solution to this kind of scenario is to let the person use what they need out of the core rulebook to make a character, and when they can afford the books, they can take on extra options.
The core rulebook is OK in that regard because it's part of the core assumption. Newbies (and people who can't afford the books, presumably) get that much leniency.
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If I remember correctly, which I may not, photocopies of pages are valid if they have the watermark...The watermark is on the PDF version, not the print version, and printouts from a watermarked PDF are valid, if the watermark is yours or a member of your households.
Borrowed books from a library are probably a no-go, IIRC, the same as photocopied pages from a hardcopy book.
Having loaned books to people in the past, I do not have a problem as long as a valid copy (ie not photocopied w/o watermark) is produced when asked.
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The biggest issue I see with using library books is the rule regarding being able to produce a physical copy of the book. Sure they could produce a copy one or more times when they check the book out, but what happens when they return the book?
As I understand the rule, photocopies from a book don't work, while printed out pages via pdf do (as they are watermarked on every page). My assumption is that possession of the physical copy is proof of ownership as it's easier to show the book than keep the receipt or other means of proof (while the pdf does that for you with the watermark). In this case I think the player is better off not using the library book for character generation in order to prevent issues down the road.
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Whenever the player does not have access to his/her non-CRB material, that player may not use those resources. This is true whether they're using a friend's copy or a library book.
I know, it was an example of the problem it causes. I should have finished the thought though. I just meant they would create a character and play it (legally) and then have it become illegal without the resource and unplayable at some point in the characters career. It doesn't seem to me to be worth it even for a cool feature of some sort for a period of time.
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What is required is a physical copy at time of play or printed pdf.
If they have it at time of play that is all that matters.
The worry that they came upon the item and their duration of possession is besides the point, provided they haven't acted like murder hobos IRL to get it.
How they provide an item for the next game is their business, just like it is for anyone else when a book is lost, eaten by their eidilon or stolen.
Finally, anyone who puts additional requirements, such as "do they own this book or that item in their possession is violating the don't be a jerk rule. Finally, it is really none of their business.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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I would say borrowing books from the library is an exelent idea to start off. That way you can read trough a book and test the options before commiting to buying.
While its of course neccecairy to own the material in the long run, its a good way to bridge te gap if money to spend is thin.
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I've FAQ'd this; I think it's important for someone from Paizo to say something about it.
I kind of disagree with Kerney's comment because Paizo needs to make money and the core assumption should account for this; but scenarios like getting books from the library or somewhere else seems like a grey area.
I don't know that a GM should really take steps to question it; surely this kind of thing is entirely on the player and they should just do the right thing, whatever that may be.
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I kind of disagree with Kerney's comment because Paizo needs to make money and the core assumption should account for this; but scenarios like getting books from the library or somewhere else seems like a grey area.
When we play in public venues, welcome new players and make an effort to encourage others to get/stay involved with the hobby, we are taking actions that lead directly to sales for Paizo, essentially acting as ambassadors. Therefore I feel that a somewhat permissive attitude towards how we provide ourselves source materials is warranted.
Hope that clarifies things a bit.
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I've tried. They aren't particularly receptive to it, when they can buy the next vampire lovin' book for teens instead and get 1,000 times the circulation from it instead.
I do have a small collection of older RPG books that we've deleted due to damages and wear and tear. I got my D20 Modern book for $1 at a old/damaged materials sale.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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You need either a physical copy or a watermarked PDF for any material you use. If it's core, you might get away with that because it's assumed everyone has a core rulebook. That should be sufficient enough until the person can buy a real book. PDFs of rulebooks are dirt cheap, anyway. They only cost 10 bucks.
I would think that if they were gonna steal from the library to play that would happen either way. I don't see how allowing those books as resources would increase theft.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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You need either a physical copy or a watermarked PDF for any material you use. If it's core, you might get away with that because it's assumed everyone has a core rulebook. That should be sufficient enough until the person can buy a real book. PDFs of rulebooks are dirt cheap, anyway. They only cost 10 bucks.
Please consider that 10 bucks can be a large chuck out of someones budget.
If you have to save up, even for the PDF, bridging the gap with a librabry book would help considerably.
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You need either a physical copy or a watermarked PDF for any material you use. If it's core, you might get away with that because it's assumed everyone has a core rulebook. That should be sufficient enough until the person can buy a real book. PDFs of rulebooks are dirt cheap, anyway. They only cost 10 bucks.
Someone who can't afford the book, probably can't afford the tablet/laptop/jumpdrive needed for a pdf. In my area there may not even be a computer at home, hence the frequent library users (do libraries offer e-storage space like that?).
Yes they could print for 10-20 cents a page, but when you are talking about the CRB, the $40 is cheaper.It is never 'only 10 bucks'
EDIT: ninja'd by Woran.
Is it? Some libraries have them. I wonder if they actually do disappear more often than other books.I would think that if they were gonna steal from the library to play that would happen either way. I don't see how allowing those books as resources would increase theft.It's a major reason why you won't find them in most libraries though.
The Bible is the book most commonly stolen from the library.
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Some do. I strongly suspect that it depends on their being somebody at the library who's an advocate for them. If not the actual buyer, somebody to talk the buyer into it.Some do.
And I just want to express my jealousy of all you who live in areas where the libraries carry RPG books. I would have killed for that when I was a kid. (Now I just buy my own, so it is less of an issue.)
Or someone philanthropic enough to donate them to the library. Most libraries are happy to accept almost any book as a donation. Some might need to go in a limited access area, due to subject matter, but that, as the saying goes, is a different subject. ;)
The LVCCD (Las Vegas/Clark County Library District) has one copy of the Firefly RPG Core Rulebook, currently checked out, with two holds on it.
Multiple copies at multiple locations of the ACG.
Same for the Bestiary 3, Ultimate Magic, Bestiary 2, Bestiary 1, Core Rulebook, Bestiary 4, Ultimate Equipment, and Ultimate Combat.
Heh. Two locations with copies of Tower of the Last Baron, an LB series module, apparently.
Multiple locations with Flight of the Red Raven, another module, W3.
Pathfinder Tales: Called to Darkness in multiple locations.
Found with a search for the word Pathfinder.
Probably something can be done via the library swap system, too....
Some do. I strongly suspect that it depends on their being somebody at the library who's an advocate for them. If not the actual buyer, somebody to talk the buyer into it.Some do.
And I just want to express my jealousy of all you who live in areas where the libraries carry RPG books. I would have killed for that when I was a kid. (Now I just buy my own, so it is less of an issue.)
Or someone philanthropic enough to donate them to the library. Most libraries are happy to accept almost any book as a donation. Some might need to go in a limited access area, due to subject matter, but that, as the saying goes, is a different subject. ;)
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I think this is the main thing.
The city where I grew up, someone kept donating RPG books to the library. The librarian said they got one in the mail about every season.
The weird thing was that I don't think the person donating really played RPG's. because they seemed to be almost random. Some of the games wouldn't have the main first book that you needed to play, but would have most of the add on's. Another game might have 4 copies of 1 book.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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You need either a physical copy or a watermarked PDF for any material you use. If it's core, you might get away with that because it's assumed everyone has a core rulebook. That should be sufficient enough until the person can buy a real book. PDFs of rulebooks are dirt cheap, anyway. They only cost 10 bucks.Please consider that 10 bucks can be a large chuck out of someones budget.
If you have to save up, even for the PDF, bridging the gap with a librabry book would help considerably.
I mean that $10 is a small investment for the amount of entertainment you can get from it. Especially when we're dealing with a hobby where people pay so much money to attend a convention just so they can have a weekend of gaming.
While PFS assumes you have a core rulebook, it does not require you to have it at the table. You only need to provide for material not in the CRB and PFS guide. If budget proves such a major issue, you can play without buying any books--just make a character that only uses core rules and ask to borrow another player's book if you need to look up a rule. Or just check out the CRB from the library and use that. You can do that until you have the money for a PDF. Paizo.com is particularly awesome because you don't need e-storage. The PDFs you buy are stored on their cloud. You can print off your class and feats from non-core books at a library. You don't need to print the entire book. You only need the material you use. Because of the above reasons, I'd find it unreasonable to cheat the system by using non-core books you borrowed from a library.