Unchained Automatic Bonus Progression and NPCs

[Gigigidge]

I want to start by saying I love that Unchained gave us at least two options for replacing the big 6, and my personal favorite of the two is the Automatic Bonus Progression system (although I'm not 100% sold on the way the weapons & armor component works, but I'll give it a chance before I decide).

However, I'm not sure how the Automatic Bonus Progression system should work for NPCs to consistently keep something close to the current PC/NPC balance of power.

1. Just having 50% items and no progression on the table, NPCs will never get basic bonuses, which would seem to shift the balance of power to the PCs.

2. Back-of-the-envelope math, it seems like NPCs who use the same table progression as PCs would gain quite a bit under these rules relative to where they stand today. For example, a standard 10th level NPC would have, just earned at 10th level, the equivalent of a ring of protection +2 and a cloak of resistance +3, worth about 17K, or almost twice his NPC gear value per table 14-9 in the CRB. This would seem to shift the balance of power to the NPCs.

3. Using PC level - 2 (or 1, or 3, or 6, etc.) gets closer , but unless you use different adjustments at different levels, it changes the balance of power at different points, since NPC wealth currently scales more slowly than actual wealth.

1 is probably the closest to RAW, although 2 could be if you took "character" to mean both PCs and NPCs, but as indicated above, those both change the PC/NPC balance of power. However, I'd be leaning towards option 3 (which is admittedly a house rule, since there's no text to support it in Unchained) or even an Option 4—create a modified version of the table to most closely follow the progression that would be allowed based on the current NPC gear value table (again, admittedly a house rule).

My question, though, before I assume I need to "fix" the PC/NPC balance of power "problem" somehow, is there official errata or an FAQ addressing this (so possibly no need for "fix")? Or am I missing something in how this is supposed to work (so possibly no need to address a PC/NPC balance of power "problem")?

[Mark Seifter]

I'd give an NPC PC level-1, since they are one CR lower. This is a boost for NPCs, who frankly needed the boost, but had no way to get the boost without giving the PCs too much money for beating them.

[Gigigidge]

Mark Seifter wrote:

I'd give an NPC PC level-1, since they are one CR lower. This is a boost for NPCs, who frankly needed the boost, but had no way to get the boost without giving the PCs too much money for beating them.

Thanks for the quick reply, Mark.

I actually like this system and your suggestion a lot because one solution solves two problems. It not only gets rid of the big 6 in a way that's relatively easy to implement, but it also gives a back door boost to NPCs with class levels, which I agree is really needed. (I actually though that might be an intended side effect of the system—thanks for confirming my suspicions on that.)

[Mark Seifter]

Yup. And feel free to use the weapon and armor rules from the Unleashing Unchained blog if you prefer them. I actually do, but the math was too complex to be the one we released if we had to choose, and there was no space for both.

[Claxon]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Yup. And feel free to use the weapon and armor rules from the Unleashing Unchained blog if you prefer them. I actually do, but the math was too complex to be the one we released if we had to choose, and there was no space for both.

I could probably track this down, but can you link it Mark?

I like the idea of the Automatic Bonus Progression, but don't actually like how it was laid out in terms of what you get when.

Edit: Nevermind, found it more easily than anticipated.

[Gigigidge]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Yup. And feel free to use the weapon and armor rules from the Unleashing Unchained blog if you prefer them. I actually do, but the math was too complex to be the one we released if we had to choose, and there was no space for both.

Thanks again Mark!

I think as soon as I can convince our group to try this system, I'm going to go with the blog one. I can see players (myself included, at least in some cases) not wanting to give up the AC and Attack bonuses for armor and weapons for a lot of the special abilities. Unless I'm misunderstanding the intent of the table and how it works, the blog approach provides a workaround for that if players are willing to spend the gold.

[Gigigidge]

Mark, if you're happen to see this thread, I have one more question: how would you recommend handling the enhancement bonus for something like a solar or a pit fiend?

I don't see them as using the ABP table, as they don't actually have levels. The easiest approach I can think of that preserves the maths and doesn't require breaking the "magic items don't give modifiers" is to give any creature without class levels that has "signature" armor or weapons the equivalent of an attunement bonus that doesn't stack with the attunement bonuses from levels. If they do gain levels, they use the higher of their inherent attunement bonus or their level attunement bonus.

Or is their something I'm missing in the Pathfinder Unchained? Or would you have a different recommendation?

[Mark Seifter]

Gigigidge wrote:

Mark, if you're happen to see this thread, I have one more question: how would you recommend handling the enhancement bonus for something like a solar or a pit fiend?

I don't see them as using the ABP table, as they don't actually have levels. The easiest approach I can think of that preserves the maths and doesn't require breaking the "magic items don't give modifiers" is to give any creature without class levels that has "signature" armor or weapons the equivalent of an attunement bonus that doesn't stack with the attunement bonuses from levels. If they do gain levels, they use the higher of their inherent attunement bonus or their level attunement bonus.

Or is their something I'm missing in the Pathfinder Unchained? Or would you have a different recommendation?

Yeah, those guys with weapons in the monster statblock and no class levels don't use ABP. Their items are baked into the assumptions of the creature, and I'd do it pretty much exactly like you did.

[Gigigidge]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Gigigidge wrote:

Mark, if you're happen to see this thread, I have one more question: how would you recommend handling the enhancement bonus for something like a solar or a pit fiend?

I don't see them as using the ABP table, as they don't actually have levels. The easiest approach I can think of that preserves the maths and doesn't require breaking the "magic items don't give modifiers" is to give any creature without class levels that has "signature" armor or weapons the equivalent of an attunement bonus that doesn't stack with the attunement bonuses from levels. If they do gain levels, they use the higher of their inherent attunement bonus or their level attunement bonus.

Or is their something I'm missing in the Pathfinder Unchained? Or would you have a different recommendation?

Yeah, those guys with weapons in the monster statblock and no class levels don't use ABP. Their items are baked into the assumptions of the creature, and I'd do it pretty much exactly like you did.

Thanks again Mark!

[KainPen]

Thread Revive, lol

I not sure if Mark will post back on this, but I was wondering, how should cohorts should be handle when using ABP, Should we be doing -1 level or greater, as leader ship is already a powerful feat?

Also how would monster cohorts work with this, lets use Grumble Jack from way of the wicked AP as an example, since I am actually running that ap now. He is a Ogre So he is 4 humanoid hitdice at some point he gains pc Class levels, So is ABP be based on his total hit dice or just his pc class levels?

[ericthecleric]

Kain, for any NPC that's a monster with class levels, use it's CR. For example, a night hag mesmerist 8 is CR 13, so uses the 13th level character line; her other wealth is that of a heroic 14th-level NPC, so 17,400 (34,800 divided by 2).

[Claxon]

For animal companions I used the animal companions HD as level to determine what bonuses he gets. That ends up with the companion lagging behind a few levels (4 at level 20), but honestly unless the player was normally spending a large amount of WBL on their companion this is a big improvement.

For a NPC granted by leadership (which I wouldn't allow in the first place but from an academic perspective) I would use the NPCs level (likely to be 2 lower than the PC's) to determine level for ABP.

For a creature with racial HD which later gains class levels....I'd probably treat it as CR with base racial HD + class levels.

So your Ogre is a CR 3 with 4 racial HD and thanks to the party being level 8 he has 3 class levels in fighter (the highest he could have since his master is level 8). You would treat him as level 6 for ABP.

Why? Because CR 3 is like being a 3rd level PC class (sort of...) and is a better measure of the creature's power than HD. While it doesn't make much difference on a Ogre, something that has much more HD than its CR would get a huge bonus if you use HD instead of CR.

Edit: I forgot about effective cohort level. If you have a companion with a listed effective cohort level I'd use that as the base and increase it by 1 for every PC level taken thereafter.

Double edit: It's basically as ericthecleric says, just use the creature's CR at all times is basically what it boils down to.

[KainPen]

ok thanks, I think I will go with CR for Grumble Jack because there is a way for him to pick up monster template to boost him on top of him gaining pc levels.

and for regular cohorts I will go with level -1. I was using Innate Item Bonuses, but there my players seem to get confused on buying and selling cost of stuff. Figure this maybe easier route to go.