Type, subtype, bane, and favored enemy


Rules Questions


Scenario:

Chaotic Neutral Half-elf half-celestial. Creature type should read:

Outsider (Augmented humanoid, chaotic, native)
or
Outsider (Augmented humanoid, chaotic, elf, human, native)

If the last is true, then would a elf bane weapon or favored enemy elf work against this? I'm torn on this. On one hand, these abilities tend to be vs. subtype. However, the ability is worded Humanoid (Elf). Since it isn't a humanoid, this would make it not work.

I literally have no idea which to side with. Thoughts?

Liberty's Edge

I would say no, true bane does not work on the matter that an zombie made from a human does not count as a human any more. I could be wrong however seeing as the Outsider keeps his Elf subtype.


It changes the Type, meaning it is no longer Humanoid of any persuasion.

Neither of your Type entires are correct. It should simply read "outsider (Native)".

Its Alignment does not give it an Aligned Subtype, as these are separate things. It also not Humanoid in any sense, Augmented or other. For an example see: Half-Celestial Unicorn, which does not have Animal as a subtype.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Note: half-celestials do not gain alignment subtypes.

Should be Outsider (elf, human, native).

Augmented humanoid subtype would depend on whether the template was acquired or inherited. If inherited, it's not an augmented humanoid.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sothas wrote:

Scenario:

Chaotic Neutral Half-elf half-celestial. Creature type should read:

Outsider (Augmented humanoid, chaotic, native)
or
Outsider (Augmented humanoid, chaotic, elf, human, native)

If the last is true, then would a elf bane weapon or favored enemy elf work against this? I'm torn on this. On one hand, these abilities tend to be vs. subtype. However, the ability is worded Humanoid (Elf). Since it isn't a humanoid, this would make it not work.

I literally have no idea which to side with. Thoughts?

As long as the bane matches any of the types or subtypes, it works.For this character, chaotic outsider, human, and elf banes will all work.


From the bestiary

Quote:

Creating a Half-Celestial

“Half-celestial” is an inherited or acquired template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more. A half-celestial creature retains the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

CR: HD 5 or less, as base creature + 1; HD 6–10, as base creature + 2; HD 11 or more, as base creature + 3.

Alignment: Any good.

Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves.

A half-celestial has only the outsider(native) type. He would have no other subtypes. Not human, not elf. Not chaotic or other alignment subtype.


Ok, to make it simpler the Vampire example does retain his human subtype.

Undead bane weapons work.

Do human bane weapons work as well?


Chemlak wrote:

Note: half-celestials do not gain alignment subtypes.

Should be Outsider (elf, human, native).

Augmented humanoid subtype would depend on whether the template was acquired or inherited. If inherited, it's not an augmented humanoid.

The Half-Celestial temmplate does not (to my knowledge) grant the Augmented subtype. Compare/contrast Vampire which does, and all entries are listed as Undead (Augmented Humanoid/Fey/Whatever).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The big problem is the inconsistency in applying the augmented subtype. According to the subtype itself, it should be applied whenever a template alters the creature's type, but there are a lot of creatures in the bestiaries that don't have it when they should.

It's always been my thought that subtypes aren't changed when type changes, but I don't have any rules support for it.


Chemlak wrote:
The big problem is the inconsistency in applying the augmented subtype. According to the subtype itself, it should be applied whenever a template alters the creature's type, but there are a lot of creatures in the bestiaries that don't have it when they should.

Remember that in Pathfinder specific rule trumps general rule. Thus a template-specific rule is what matters in this case.

For example vampire explicitly gets augmented subtype while zombie explicitly does not get it - zombie/skeleton are problematic a bit, however because they "retain all the subtypes except alignment and those that indicate kind" which actually means overwhelming majority of subtypes, leaving specific elemental subtypes, extraplanar, and aquatic a viable retained subtypes. Zombie/skeleton needs to be a corporeal being rendering incorporeal subtype impossible for them.

Half-celestial template explicitly states that its type is Outsider (native). No other subtypes.

Quote:


It's always been my thought that subtypes aren't changed when type changes, but I don't have any rules support for it.

I'd say the otherwise. Subtypes are part of the original type, so if the type is changed and there is no rule saying they are retained there is no reason to keep them.


OK, so my initial example is hell-a wrong. My question has still not really been answered.

My second question still stands with the human vampire as a (better) example.

Do human bane weapons still work on a human vampire?


Unfortunately no in that specific case. Bane when applied to Humanoids attacks the subtype (Human, Elf, Gnome, etc.), which a Vampire no longer has.

But a Monstrous Humanoid Vampire would, since it has the Augmented Monstrous Humanoid subtype, which is broader.


By that reasoning then the human bane weapon should work because it retains the human subtype with augmented humanoid. If monstrous humanoid bane weapons would work on a monstrous humanoid vampire then human bane should too.


Sothas wrote:
By that reasoning then the human bane weapon should work because it retains the human subtype with augmented humanoid. If monstrous humanoid bane weapons would work on a monstrous humanoid vampire then human bane should too.

It doesn't retain the Human subtype, it retains the Humanoid type, with the Augmented subtype thrown in as well. Check a Vampire statblock when you get the chance.


The Bestiary 4 one does. The lich does (which doesn't even have the augmented subtype for some strange reason).


Oy vey. Statblock inconsistencies are a pain.

Go with the most recent one then (that'd be Bestiary 4, which I don't own) and you have your answer.


I think everyone has answered this, but a bit of official back up never hurtsIt does seem to infer that if the template did retain the (subtype) that the bane/favoured enemy would work though, which surprises me as I was of the view that bane was effectively Humanoid(elf) bane.

Nosferatu, Bestiary 4 wrote:
Type: The creature's type changes to undead (augmented). Do not recalculate class Hit Dice, BAB, or saves.

And I'm never 100% sure, but doesn't text trump table? If so the table stat block for the Nosferatu is wrong.

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