Looking through a few posts about dealing with swarms, I did not find adequate information or arguments about the subject. Even if this is beating a dead horse, a few questions came up in a gaming session the other day that were ruled roughly, so I will make a few inquiries with the information below.
The Whirlwind Attack feat does say that you attack each opponent within reach, is the swarm considered one enemy for this purpose or as multiple opponents?
RAW: The swarms are made up of hundreds or thousands of non-targetable creatures; and is instead a targetable area
RAI: Swarms should be considered as one targetable area
Can the Whirlwind Attack combat feat be used to damage swarms with weapon damage and additional energy damage attached to said weapon? This mostly applies to swarms made up of tiny creatures, the energy damage part applies more to swarms made p of fine and diminutive sized creatures.
The next part is in relation to the Manifest Blood general feat’s ability to damage creatures making a natural weapon attack or an unarmed strike against the user. For this, it was ruled as an AoE against swarms doing damage to the user.
This brought up the argument that swarm damage is not truly considered a natural weapon attack, it is considered automatic damage as it’s written. The other side was that the individual creatures of the swarm are making natural attacks and so each creature would be subject to the feats damage component.
Whirlwind Attack (feat)
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Manifest Blood (feat)
Monster Subtype: Swarm
A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature. A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures. In order to attack, it moves into an opponent’s space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. A swarm can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes anattack of opportunity if it does so. A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures.
A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures.
A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not.
Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking.
Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.
Swarm Traits
A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons.
A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.
Reducing a swarm to 0 points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack.
Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.
Swarm Damage
How should swarms be handled in these situations?
For the rules, a swarm is a single creature so whirlwind attack is not viable against the creatures that make up a swarm.
Although not exactly a natural attack, when the rules talk about swarms and their ability to overcome damage reduction it is quite clear that the swarm attack does indeed spring from natural attacks, which I believe is a strong enough connection that manifiest blood and similar things would trigger. RAW it would be just the base damage, but certainly treating it as area damage fits with the spirit of the rules and, is I think a perfectly legitimate ruling.
Regarding Whirlwind Attack:
The swarm is indeed a single entity for purposes of attacks, regardless of size or consistency. You don't get multiple hits on the swarm any more than you'd get multiple hits on a horse or other multi-space creature, and the fact that you can potentially make multiple melee attacks against different enemies does not make the individual melee attacks count as an AoE.
Further, as you are still making only a single melee attack against the swarm, a Tiny or smaller swarm's weapon immunity will still apply, regardless of energy damage effects on the weapon.
Regarding Manifest Blood:
As written in the subtype, swarms do not make standard melee attacks, they simply deal automatic damage. As this automatic damage is not a natural weapon attack or an unarmed strike, Manifest Blood would not trigger.
A swarm counts as a single creature. WwA will only get one attack against each swarm within reach.
There is no reason to treat a swarm attack as anything other than a natural attack.Just because it automatically hits doesn't make it un-natural. Manifest Blood should trigger each time you are damaged by the swarm.
There is no reason to treat a swarm attack as anything other than a natural attack.Just because it automatically hits doesn't make it un-natural. Manifest Blood should trigger each time you are damaged by the swarm.
The trigger condition for Manifest Blood isn't a natural attack, it's a natural weapon attack. All natural weapon attacks are natural attacks, but many natural attacks (stirge's touch attack, witchfire's ranged touch, etc) are not natural weapon attacks. A swarm attack may be considered a natural attack, but it involves no natural weapon of any kind, and thus doesn't trigger Manifest Blood.
|
RAW, the swarm is one target for the purpose of Whirlwind Attack: it acts as a single creature with one AC and one pool of hit points. Whirlwind attack is not an area effect.
The swarm does not make a natural weapon attack so it doesn't trigger Manifest Blood.
I would house-rule that Manifest Blood works on swarms and counts as an area attack, and I would give a character 50% bonus damage when using Whirlwind Attack against a swarm (still subject to resistance/immunity to weapon damage).
Thank you everyone for your responses. These were helpful in resolving the discussion my group was having.
Whirlwind Attack (combat feat) was ruled as being treated as an AoE for bludgeoning weapons with regular resistances and immunities being applied for the swarm. The reasoning for the AoE for bludgeoning weapons was strictly because tiny swarms do not reduce its damage.
Manifesting Blood (general feat) was ruled as being an AoE effect against swarms with any resistances/immunities being applied as necessary. There was also deliberation that certain swarms may ignore characters who have it activated in the first place, depending on the swarm and the energy type of the damage.
This is why we have GMs, to figure out strange combinations that are not explicitly described in the rules.
Whirlwind Attack means you are just swinging your weapons around really fast hitting everything within reach - but only hitting each target once. The swarm is one target that is either immune to weapons or takes half damage from weapons. So you get one attack at normal damage. Unless there are other nearby targets, you are probably just better off using your normal iterative attacks so you can hit the swarm more than once. if the creatures are large enough, you might even damage it.
As for Manifesting Blood, the simple question is, how do swarms damage people in their area? How does a swarm of ants damage a target? They bite. How does a swarm of bees damage a target? They sting. How does a swarm of monkeys damage a target? They bite and scratch. Etc. Each of these answers represents normal melee attacks. The swarm's damage is automatic without an attack roll because there are hundreds or even thousands of these normal melee attacks. Rolling all of them would be tedious and impractical, so the rules just say some damage is automatically done every round. But that damage is still the result of normal melee attacks. Therefore, Manifesting Blood should work and since it's an energy attack, should be eligible for the 50% bonus.